http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iowa-pacific-shares-details-passenger-rail-trial-run
Nice idea with limitations. 1. The train goes from Saluda to Midwest City, requiring a bus transfer at both ends to get to Tulsa and OKC. Why? 2. 180 minutes to cover a distance that can be managed on parallel I 44 in 95 minutes in a car; 108-135 minutes by bus service.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Agreed. Ed Ellis of Iowa Pacific must have a lot of money to play with from his freight holdings to indulge this. It looks like the AntiHSR and too pokey for even regular Tulsa-Oklahoma City bus traffic.
I hate to see black eyes for new passenger ventures, and this looks like one in the making.
Iowa Pacific has a record of sucsess in starting and taking over rail passenger operations. I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
What passenger operations has Iowa pacific taken over?
Looks like the only "passenger operations" Iowa Pacific runs have been excursion trains, not daily transportation services.
http://www.iowapacific.com/passenger-trains.html
That's what I thought.
ROBERT WILLISON What passenger operations has Iowa pacific taken over?
They have taken over the Cape Cod (MA) operaton, the Saratoga & North Creek (NY), the Santa Cruz (CA) operation, Mt. Hood RR (OR), and the Texas State RR. They were set to restart (IIRC sold reservations) the Winter Park Colorado Ski Train when Amtrak pulled the plug. They sued ATK, and won.
schlimm Looks like the only "passenger operations" Iowa Pacific runs have been excursion trains, not daily transportation services. http://www.iowapacific.com/passenger-trains.html
I would hardly call the Chicago-New Orleans Pullman service an excursion train.
The S&NC operation was turned over to Iowa Pacific by the counties that owned the track because they were not happy with the previous short tourist train out of North Creek. Iowa Pacific's service, while it is mainly excursion, also makes a half dozen stops along the route to serve small towns in the Adirondack region. I took the train in summer, and we stopped for local residents at intermediate stations. It also connects with ATK. When I rode it, service was 2 daily round trips.
The public agency that is funding the Cape Cod operation is looking to get passsengers to take the train for their weekend trips to the Cape, to mitigate traffic congestion.
Iowa Pacific has smilar plans for Santa Cruz, and the aforementioned Denver Ski Train would have been a blessing for weekend skiers who otherwise would be crawling on I-70.
The Tulsa/OKC service would not be a stretch for them.
Edit: I would recommend reading the Trains June 2013 article on Ed Ellis and passenger trains.
I have ridden on the pullman journey excursions. Its a fine operation,but excursion operation all the same. Its does not operate daily and is added onto the back of a regularly scheduled inter city passenger train.
The Saratoga and north creek is also a seasonal operation.
Neither Pullman journey or the Saratoga and north creek is in the business of offering regularly scheduled inter city passenger service.
Its much easier to make a profit on excursion based trains then on intercity trains especially one that's not competitive when automobile and bus service schedules and which requires bus connections to complete thier journeys.
schlimm Nice idea with limitations. 1. The train goes from Saluda to Midwest City, requiring a bus transfer at both ends to get to Tulsa and OKC. Why? 2. 180 minutes to cover a distance that can be managed on parallel I 44 in 95 minutes in a car; 108-135 minutes by bus service.
I understand they want to get it done before PTC regulations become law but this is a little silly, IMV. Should be downtown to downtown and I am sure they could have got an exception to the PTC rules if they worked at it.
MidlandMikeI would hardly call the Chicago-New Orleans Pullman service an excursion train.
1. The term Iowa Pacific uses is "scenic excursion trains." If you don't like that term, take it up with Ed Ellis.
2. The City of New Orleans is merely tacking on some nicely refurbished Pullman cars on the back of Amtrak's trains 59 and 58.
I hope someone is paying Iowa Pacific for this seemingly goofy undertaking.
The original article was unclear on the funding point.
Mac
Hopefully they will extend to the natural terminal points ASAP and provide multiple trains per day if they are serious about offering passenger rail there.
CMStPnP I understand they want to get it done before PTC regulations become law but this is a little silly, IMV. Should be downtown to downtown and I am sure they could have got an exception to the PTC rules if they worked at it.
Actually if one reads the PTC rule closely PTC might not be required on this route. There is a provision for a waiver application if there is no TIH on the line (even residual in empty cars), the route has less than 15 MGT per year and there are 4 or fewer passenger trains per day. Anyone know about TIH here?
BuslistAnyone know about TIH here?
What is the official difference between TIH (toxic inhalation hazard) and PIH (poison inhalation hazard) -- different agency terminology?
Wizlish Buslist Anyone know about TIH here? What is the official difference between TIH (toxic inhalation hazard) and PIH (poison inhalation hazard) -- different agency terminology?
Buslist Anyone know about TIH here?
I believe they are the same.
ROBERT WILLISON I have ridden on the pullman journey excursions. Its a fine operation,but excursion operation all the same. Its does not operate daily and is added onto the back of a regularly scheduled inter city passenger train. The Saratoga and north creek is also a seasonal operation. Neither Pullman journey or the Saratoga and north creek is in the business of offering regularly scheduled inter city passenger service. Its much easier to make a profit on excursion based trains then on intercity trains especially one that's not competitive when automobile and bus service schedules and which requires bus connections to complete thier journeys.
Yes , S&NC is a seasonal operation, they are busy in the summer, but they also have fall color tours, xmas tours, winter ski trains, etc. Nevertheless, it is still not just strictly an excursion train (if by excursion, you mean starting and ending at the same point, with the ride as entertainment rather than transportation) as they schedule extra trains to take people from North Creek and multiple intermediate points, between each other, and to Saratoga to do whatever business they had there, or to connect to Amtrak. Iowa Pacific could have saved themselves some trouble if they had just ran a North Creek excursion tour, however, they have gone the extra mile to create a usable public service.
The Pullman journey to NOLA isn't daily (two round trips per week}, but it is regularly scheduled. As you point out, this "excursion" train is hard coupled to Amtrak's regular train. Is this thing a regular train or an excursion train? It seems a distinction without a difference. If Iowa Pacific can operate a 1000 mile diner/sleeper train, could they not operate a 100 mile 1st class/coach train Tulsa/OKC? Yes, Amtrak pulls their Pullman journey, but Iowa Pacific pulls their own passenger (and freight) trains over the 62 mils of 3% mountain grades between Alamosa and LaVeta, CO. Do you think the 100 flat miles Tulsa/OKC would be a challenge?
They say they will run the trains with coach and 1st class service, so it may have some aspects of regular and excursion service. They admit that not having access to the downtowns is not ideal, but they don't have control over that trackage. They have negotiated similar deals with other railroads and ATK, so if they say these deals take a while to complete, I will take their word for it. They realize they will need to do this, if the test service indicates it's viable.
I don't believe anyone thinks this experiment is a sure thing, but if someone with lots of passenger cars, successful passenger experience, and money wants to try, then I am enthusiastic.
Buslist ... Actually if one reads the PTC rule closely PTC might not be required on this route. There is a provision for a waiver application if there is no TIH on the line (even residual in empty cars), the route has less than 15 MGT per year and there are 4 or fewer passenger trains per day. Anyone know about TIH here?
...
Are they likely to sign the waiver with a Bakken crude train on the line? (if it is still running)
http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2010/01/bnsf-watco-team-up-on-unit-crude-train
Buslist Wizlish Buslist Anyone know about TIH here? What is the official difference between TIH (toxic inhalation hazard) and PIH (poison inhalation hazard) -- different agency terminology? I believe they are the same.
They are the same.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
So my question for mike is would Pullman journeys be profitable as a stand alone operation. If so why not bring back a daily or even twice a week Panama limited. I think we all know the reason, it would not survive. With that said Pullman journeys is aimed at a small market. My roomette was great but nearly 1000.00 dollars. The people I dined with all were on the the train for the train. They were not simply going from point a to point b. it was a great experience, something I truly enjoyed, but more like a cruise ship than a way to get to Chicago. By the way they operate a train once a week in each direction.
As for the s & nc, try buying a ticket today. It would be cold wait for a train. with that said I am not knocking the operation it sounds great but its a great excursion train that makes intermediate stops. Much like the cuyahoga valley scenic railroad which makes quite a few stops along its journey thur the valley, boarding and detraining passengers and thier bikes. But it too is a great seasonal excursion like train that offers a great experience on a seasonal basis.
What comes closes to a a excursion train that acts like a passenger train is the grand canyon railway. It runs a daily except Christmas and provides a great way to get to the canyon and takes tens of thousands of cars out of the park. They thrived where the at &sf gave up on in 1968.
Hey I am not knocking what they are trying to do and I hope they are successful. I am just pointing out that the company had not taken over any passenger operations that in at least my opinion that are nothing more than excursion type trains.
Robert Wilson, I presume the Pullman Journey is scheduled at a frequency to match demand. No I would guess that it would not be profitable as a daily stand-alone train, but then, neither is the regular daily train that it is attached to. I'm sure that people take Pullman for the history and ambiance, but if when they get to New Orleans, they get back on a train or plane immediately for return to Chicago, then they are missing a great city. I have never taken Pullman, but I have taken Amtrak's City of NO, and spent a few days in NOLA. The website's FAQ said the train was twice a week, but now looking at the Booking options, it appears they have cut back to once a week.
On the S&NC, I myself took the train as an excursion (as did most people) but there were a token number of people getting on an off at intermediate points, plus that summer (2012) I was there, they scheduled an early train from NC to Saratoga, and return in the evening for locals gong to Saratoga, or connecting with Amtrak. While it might be a minor (and maybe not even profitable) part of that whole operation, it shows that they have operated some trains primarily for transportation.
Looking at the article, and knowing how Iowa Pacific operates, I suspect the Tulsa/OKC trains will have some aspects of both regular and excursion trains to capture both markets.
I agree mike, I never taken the s & nc, maybe this summer. I strongly recommend Pullman. Such a throw back to by gone era . where else can you book a section. I hope the Tulsa train works out just as well.
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