To refer to a metro area of almost three million people as "much smaller" would provoke anger or derisive laughter from the residents. By that standard, Chicagoans should regard Atlanta as far smaller and New Yorkers regard Chicago as miniscule.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Regarding the size of the network, it would seem that agreement could be had that the network needs to be about 3 to 4 times the size it is in terms of trainmiles, with a route mileage roughly the size of the interstate, to provide resonable performance.
We have what is in essence a "demostration system" that has been left in place to cover the politicians rears should a major fuel crisis develop, so they could say, see I supported this too. Vople and the ICC knew that it was too small when set it up, but it was the best that could be done in those car crazy years. It also has saved many station locations that represent invaluable assets in terms of right of ways and acerage, though far too many have fallen that could have been useful (imagine the Atlanta or Houston terminals since razed).
Should the network actually be expanded it would have much better financial and consumer utility performance due to increased density of passenger miles per train mile (remember passenger trains do best hauling large numbers around and you need a lot of origin-destination pairs to have the market to do so).
To support this buildout from the infrastructure side the Federal government would first have to deal with then recover the massive handouts given to commercial road users (a true political wedge issue that could be exploited in the right hands). Then we would probably see a self liquidating infrastructure buildout to support timely movements, 52 mph average intermodal freight and 62 mph average passenger trains, at reasonable access costs, regardless of the weather.
The forecast for the NE is snow and ice over the Christmas period. Hopefully not bad enough to cause any Amtrak cancellations. Our airline always gets severe heart burn whenever this kind of weather comes at Christmas.
There are no empty seats for the many cancellations ( have known delayed passengers taking 5 days to get to destination ) Maybe if Amtrak can operate everything it will get a few extra passengers.
V.PayneRegarding the size of the network, it would seem that agreement could be had that the network needs to be about 3 to 4 times the size it is in terms of trainmiles, with a route mileage roughly the size of the interstate, to provide resonable performance.
A network not based on current reality or what the public chooses. Few folks will ride trains rather than fly distances over 800 miles unless speeds are greatly increased and that will not be possible with the RoW controlled by the private freight lines. Deveoping frequent service in 110-125 mph ~500 mile corridors should be the priority. As the ridership there increases, it may cause the public to demand a broader network. But trains from the midwest to the west coast (2000 miles) will remain a curiosity or nostalgia cruise, not a major passenger transport mode.
Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns.
Only about 15% travel between the end points.
nyc#25 Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns. Only about 15% travel between the end points.
If the long-distance trains are to be continued based on their service to intermediate points, then they should be configured for such service rather than cater to service between the endpoints. As such, perhaps said trains should look more like the "Lake Cities", the "Mainstreeter", the "City of New Orleans" and ATSF 23-24 in the years from 1965-1971 and be scheduled to provide better service to the intermediate cities.
CSSHEGEWISCH nyc#25 Trains to the west coast are important to intermeadiate towns. Only about 15% travel between the end points. If the long-distance trains are to be continued based on their service to intermediate points, then they should be configured for such service rather than cater to service between the endpoints. As such, perhaps said trains should look more like the "Lake Cities", the "Mainstreeter", the "City of New Orleans" and ATSF 23-24 in the years from 1965-1971 and be scheduled to provide better service to the intermediate cities.
1. NYC 25: Could you provide some supporting evidence for your contention that only 15% ride terminal to terminal? Amtrak official analysis, for example
2. Paul is quite right. Run real services between the more significant intermediate points, which means more than one train per day in each direction.
According to Amtrak's Long Distance Train Facts, "Most passengers on long-distance trains ride to or from stations along the route, and not between the major cities that serve as route endpoints. For example, in fiscal year 2010 less than ten per cent of the 342,000 passengers on the Chicago to Los Angeles Southwest Chief rode from end to end. Over 90 per cent of the passengers boarded and/or detrained at the 31 intermediate stops along the 2,265 miles of track, many in small towns"
According to the same source, in 2010 the typical long distance train passenger rode for more than 600 miles, although Amtrak does not say how much more than 600 miles. According to the company the typical sleeping car passenger rides for roughly 1,000 miles.
According to another source that I read a year or so ago, although I don't remember it, only four per cent of the passengers on the California Zephyr ride from end point to end point.
Sam1According to another source that I read a year or so ago, although I don't remember it, only four per cent of the passengers on the California Zephyr ride from end point to end point.
Kevin C. SmithThe heaviest passenger loads appear to be between Chicago-Denver and Reno-Sacramento & Oakland.
If that can be supported by ridership stats, that would suggest several city pairs could support shorter haul services with more than one train per day: CHI-DEN; CHI-Omaha and OAK-Reno.
I have ridden the CZ from Denver to Emeryville three times as well as once from Emeryville to Denver. The best trips were during the winter; the snow covered scenery is fantastic, and the load factor is lower than during the summer months.
It appears that the heaviest passengers loads are between Chicago and Denver as well as Reno and Oakland. During my two winter trips from Denver to Emeryville it seemed that a substantial number of passengers who were on the train when it arrived in Denver continued onto Fraser. Presumably they were skiers.
When I last rode the train from Emeryville, which was three years ago, the train had a coach for Bay area passengers headed for the Reno gambling tables. It was the last coach, and it was cut off the train at Reno.
Sure hope this Jan 1st cold spell is not a harbringer of things to come. Will be interesting to see how the northern trains behave the next few days. Reports most welcome.
A concen no one has posted is are the LD trains getting enough power? The bitter cold presently would seem to dictate at least 2 operative HEP locos on any train. That would protect against most HEP failures. As well the ability of the revised DC GE traction motors to resist snow flash overs is unknown, Maybe the freight RRs need to add a AC motored loco to the front of the LD trains when the trains go into heavy snow? That certainly would help fluidity. Know feight locos are limited to 70 MPH but faster acceleration with an extra loco would mitigate the schedule time loss somewhat.
blue streak 1 A concen no one has posted is are the LD trains getting enough power? The bitter cold presently would seem to dictate at least 2 operative HEP locos on any train. That would protect against most HEP failures. As well the ability of the revised DC GE traction motors to resist snow flash overs is unknown, Maybe the freight RRs need to add a AC motored loco to the front of the LD trains when the trains go into heavy snow? That certainly would help fluidity. Know feight locos are limited to 70 MPH but faster acceleration with an extra loco would mitigate the schedule time loss somewhat.
Freight carriers don't have locomotives to spare for use by Amtrak!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Unconfirmed report that all NYP origination departures delayed this Thursday were delayed due to a major CAT failure at Sunnyside yard. Anyone with details? Old CAT anywhere can fail.
Acording to newswire Chicago had another winter failure. Evidently the P-42 upgrades to the traction motors are not working. Some how Amtrak is going to have to lease some AC motored freight units as leaders. BNSF did provide one for part of SWC route.
The other question is why has Amtrak not installed enough signal reception equipment to allow more interchangeability between routes. Know NS, CSX & ACSES systems are on all locos assigned to eastern routes with exception of Michigan routes.
Well the blizzard is coming. Amtrak has posted their first service alert. Quite extensive. You NEC posters be safe.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627535692
This storm brings up many questions what with travel bans maybe put into place.
1. How will the CAT be protected?
a. Will there be ice? If so any icecicle breakers available? Pans certainly cannot do the job.
b. Heavy snow may collaspe some of the older hangers and poles. Could also cause overloaded structures to fall onto CAT.
c. Trees may fall toward the CAT as trees do have the tendency to lean toward clear spots.
2. Crews are going to need to be called in today to clear track obstructions tomorrow.
a. Can some crews of them be put up in sleepers in NY?
b. Track clearing crews will need to be stationed at various locations.
3. Operatoions. Same for personel that operate trains
a. will various diesels be used for snow clearing but with the large amounts forecast some snow may be pushed onto parallel tracks.
b. Opperational question. Will trains be dispatched with both electric motor and diesel? Since there are not enough diesels equipped for NEC signals can any of the electrics lead a diesel backup when CAT power is lost?
c. Will Amtrak straight rail as much as possible to avoid interlocking switches that may jam or freeze?
blue streak 1 http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627535692
Seconbrief from Amtrak. They have modified rest of Monday's schedule.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627540147
blue streak 1 blue streak 1 http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627535692 Seconbrief from Amtrak. They have modified rest of Monday's schedule. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627540147
Third brief. All New england service cancelled Tuesday NYP - Albany _ BOS - Portland.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627544580
Hearing rumors that storm may track farther to east which will reduce predicted snow falls. The track of any storm 50 miles either way can significanly change snow amounts. Tree can testify to this where he lives.
blue streak 1 blue streak 1 blue streak 1 http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627535692 Seconbrief from Amtrak. They have modified rest of Monday's schedule. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627540147 Third brief. All New england service cancelled Tuesday NYP - Albany _ BOS - Portland. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627544580 Hearing rumors that storm may track farther to east which will reduce predicted snow falls. The track of any storm 50 miles either way can significanly change snow amounts. Tree can testify to this where he lives.
Looks like NYC dodged the bullet. As usual the weather guessers missed the track of the storm . They actually did fairly well but unknown factors moved it the 50 miles east needed to spare NYC. The following link of the 1888 storm that tracked to dump on NYC. Prepare for worse pray for best.
http://news.yahoo.com/nyc-blizzard-of-1888-132307180.html;_ylt=A0LEViyo6sdUW3gAnDknnIlQ
3:15 PM bulletin from Amtrak. Only NYP - BOS and New Haven - springfield will operate on modified schedule. Bulletin does note that Downeaster may have problems but at time of bulletin expected to operate complete schedule. Suspect that the single trak operation of Downeaster may cause problems . We will see.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627552429
service was restored on nyc commuter lines before noon tuesday
wednesday;
Regular service resumes for Access-A-Ride customers on Wednesday, January 28
Well Amtrak had to go to only one trip each way Portland - Boston north station. They will operate Wedensday afternoon
All service supposed to operate Thursday.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627558848
News reports had Chicago Quincy service cancellled today.
Is there been any correlation to the loco failures this year to the ones with the new GE replacement DC motors vs non replaced? There does not seem to be as many traction motor failures this winter.
Some Empire service cancelled due to continuing snow. Amtrak link:
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627629155
MBTA has cancelled all rail service for Tuesday including commuter rail. Since the Downeaster operates over T rail north of Boston Amtrak has cancelled all Downeasters. So far NEC to / from Boston still operating. If Amtrak did not operate the Mass DOT owned portion of the NEC in Mass probably would have been no service BOS - PVD.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Alert_C&pagename=am/AM_Alert_C/Alerts_Popup&cid=1251627639338
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