Normally do not speculate on new routes but the continuing posts about adding more routes and especially Chicago - Florida.. Some posters that have access to old timetables might be able to give us some previous times. The CHI - Cincinnati route needs a lot of work.
One route analysis note - this is not considering the mega bucks needed or maybe the least expensive to activate this route but the quickest ?. Would expect at least 2 ( 12 hours apart ) mirror round trips..
Chicago - Cincinnati is a real mess and would need major upgrades. Probably take the best profiles of several RRs to make a speedy route. Anyone ?
Cincinnati - Atlanta. Either the CSX (L&N) or NS (SOU) are fairly good. Knoxville on CSX and Chattanooga on NS. Chattanooga station is a problem as old SOU station (Chattanooga Choo-Choo) calls for backing into station and about 7 miles backtracking to Citioco wye to go on to Atlanta. ?. The north end of CHA is not easily accessible and has a very limited population. Changing to CSX at CHA gives no station help but CSX route to Dalton might be faster ? Dalton - Atlanta CSX or NS unknown which route faster?
Knoxville station would need a new location as well.
The need for a new station in Atlanta is well known. Any new station needs to be located off the NS BHM - ATL - CLT line for the Crescent will need a loop track ( similar to the ACL Broad Street station in Richmond) . That enables a train to turn a train to go south without backing to Howell CP..
Atlanta - Macon - Cordele has two choices one of the old SOU or Cof GA. to Maco CofGA had block signals removed some years ago. NS Macon - Cordele, Georgia good on NS but might need a few more siding(s) maybe longer. Another choice going south of Atlanta would be CofGA - A&WP to Union City connection to CSX (ACL). CSX to Cordele. Then Cordele - Jacksonville on the higher speed ACL Manchester sub (joins NY line at Folkston )
After JAX either FEC to Miami or to Orlando - TPA? - MIA or split at JAX and terminate TPA?
comments ? .
If you think getting the Lake Shore across the Chicago line is tough....I can't even imagine a passenger train tangling with the CNO&TP south of Danville. Bring lots of money. You will be constructing lots of track. Atlanta to Chicago is probably one of those places you really can't use old alignments and do anything meaningful. The answer is probably some sort of HSR alignment from scratch.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
CAPACITY CAPACITY CAPACITY
Neither NS or CSX has sufficient capacity over and above their own freight traffic requirements to support passenger operations, and no incentive to build capacity for anything but their own operations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD CAPACITY CAPACITY CAPACITY
Agree with you and Oltmann completely ! !. Was looking for the fastest possible route. Want posters to realize how expensive that this route would be. Know one route proposed was CN to New Orleans then CX to JAX but not considering that route. Another might be Capitol Limited to WASH then STAR to Florida but again ---- Just concentrate on best time route this way
blue streak 1Was looking for the fastest possible route.
Take a look at intermodal schedules from Chicago to Atlanta and Jacksonville to get an idea...and note that nearly zero UPS moves in this lane.
This thread raises larger questions of how to expand passenger rail services. There appear to be serious capacity issues (see the Frailey blog, which maybe not entirely serious) on many of the trunk lines. So are we talking building new dedicated track either on new RoWs or old, under-utilized ones (if any exist)?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The routes also have to consider intermediate points. It may be advantageous to use the model of the Erie's passenger service. Plan your route to serve the smaller intermediate points that don't have much alternate service so the service will actually get used.
CSSHEGEWISCH The routes also have to consider intermediate points. It may be advantageous to use the model of the Erie's passenger service. Plan your route to serve the smaller intermediate points that don't have much alternate service so the service will actually get used.
It occurs to me (and I don't recall seeing this discussed before) that a mixed model for service might be appropriate here -- the full Chicago-to-Florida traffic treated as a 'cruise train' like the old California Zephyr, and the timing and route adjusted so that a good percentage of important intermediate stops can be serviced (perhaps even as origin-destination pairs) at convenient times, essentially providing optimized transportation service rather than 'the experience'.
Part of the tacit assumption here is that a dedicated "Chicago to Florida" train would serve areas NOT presently served by a combination of the City of New Orleans and a re-establishment of the old Sunset Route service from New Orleans via Flomaton to Jacksonville (with connections or extension down the peninsula). Since it's evident that a considerable amount of pain, "confusion and delay" would be involved in any such routing that provides meaningful new or extended service ... what are the most optimal intermediate communities or regions that could be served, and where are the meaningful 'segments' where effective daylight service would be possible?
Known stupid question -- but are there possible options? -- is there a Chicago-Florida routing of ANY kind that would tolerate an Auto-Train operation?
blue streak 1Normally do not speculate on new routes but the continuing posts about adding more routes and especially Chicago - Florida.. Some posters that have access to old timetables might be able to give us some previous times.
1962
1. IC/CG/ACL/SAL City of Miami CHI-Birm- COL-JCKVLLE-Miami: 31:15
2. IC Seminole same route: 37:00
3. C&EI/L&N/ACL/FEC Dixie Flyer CHI-EVLLE-NASH-CHATT-ATL-JCKVLLE-Miami: 42:00
I get the impression that Amtrak would like to serve Nashville, so any route would probably go thru there. It has to be one of the biggest cities without thru rail service, and is a big tourist draw.
IN addition to what the other posters have stated regarding capacity, I will add what Craig Saunder wrote in "Amtrak In The Heartland," p. 90 :
"The Floridian often had good loads during the winter, and the Midwest - Florida travel market is vast. Amtrak's New York - Florida route is popular, so why wouldn't a Chicago - Florida route have similar success? The answer lies in differences between the markets. Railroads offering New York - Florida service in the 1960s made money and offered high quality service. Railroads in the Midwest - Florida market saw it as futile and eliminated or downgraded their trains. Chicago - Miami is 80 miles longer than New York - Miami, but because of route configurations, the best time Amtrak might muster is 7 hours longer than the New York route. Amtrak's 1990 report observed that states along the Chicago - Florida route generate 60 percent of the travel volume of the Northeast - Florida market. Yet with a population 45 percent of New York, Chicago generated 30 percent as many airline trips to Florida. 'This seems to suggest that there may be less of a Midwestern affinity, as compared to New York, to travel to Florida by common carrier,' the report concluded."
In other words, the route is longer, slower, more congested, and more spread out than the NEC - Florida market. The Midwesterners don't have as strong a desire to go to Florida as Northeasterners do. Midwesterners are more likely to go elsewhere, such as Hi, S. AZ, and S TX, or to the Caribbean.
Also, given the GA legislature's complete ignorance of passenger train service, I would route the train from Cincinnati, to AL, through Birmingham and Montgomery ( AL state capitol ), then go via Bainbridge GA to Tallahassee ( FL State Capitol ). I think one has to have visible, **daytime,** service to capital cities in order to demonstrate the usefulness or utility of train service. The service should also have at least two trains per day each direction, as anything less would be used by train opponents as an example of train uselessness.
CG9602 In other words, the route is longer, slower, more congested, and more spread out than the NEC - Florida market. .... I think one has to have visible, **daytime,** service to capital cities in order to demonstrate the usefulness or utility of train service.
In other words, the route is longer, slower, more congested, and more spread out than the NEC - Florida market. .... I think one has to have visible, **daytime,** service to capital cities in order to demonstrate the usefulness or utility of train service.
That is in part why I wonder if having a service where the riding experience between 'nominal origin-destination' does not depend highly on speed ... but timing between key intermediate destination pairs can happen in daytime (or, perhaps, over the same 'nighttime' that made sleeper service between New York and Chicago convenient - leaving after the workday is finished, arriving convenient for the beginning of the next business day, and providing proper amenities and a restful night enroute... (this is essentially the California Zephyr model with 'useful local service' substituted for 'attractive views' -- but allowing slow running and even periodic stops at night or segments without need for local convenience).
The service should also have at least two trains per day each direction, as anything less would be used by train opponents as an example of train uselessness.
Here's the rub: you'd need a substantially greater number of trainsets (plus 'spares') to run a full daily service on that longer schedule. I would gently suggest that, at least to start, the full Chicago-Florida service have 'sailing days', perhaps triweekly, with regional service between the intermediate city or 'capital' pairs as state funding may warrant. Then if demand (and subsidy amounts) warrant, the service could be extended to greater frequency.
(As an aside -- there is a very substantial group of people in the Southeast who vacation in the Destin-FWB area. This was ill-served with a roughly 2am stopping time in Crestview or DeFuniak which still left you 30 miles or so from where you were going... but going the Georgia route to Tallahassee leads me to wonder if a connection service could be arranged. (I'd be thinking luxury bus taking I-10 to either 331 or 85, either dropping/picking up as needed, connecting with local jitney or convenience van service, or reaching local auto rental places. Tallahassee is reasonably close to most Panhandle ultimate destinations, too, if you were running an Auto-Train service...)
Overmod(As an aside -- there is a very substantial group of people in the Southeast who vacation in the Destin-FWB area. This was ill-served with a roughly 2am stopping time in Crestview or DeFuniak which still left you 30 miles or so from where you were going... but going the Georgia route to Tallahassee leads me to wonder if a connection service could be arranged. (I'd be thinking luxury bus taking I-10 to either 331 or 85, either dropping/picking up as needed, connecting with local jitney or convenience van service, or reaching local auto rental places. Tallahassee is reasonably close to most Panhandle ultimate destinations, too, if you were running an Auto-Train service...)
On page 52 in Trains magazine Dec 2009 is a map of 'By Train to Florida, January 1953', which shows mid-western trains. St Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo had connecting trains that funnelled to Carbondale or Cincinnati to meet the Chicago passengers. Here are some times from about 1968, Chicago to Jacksonville.
There was also the 6 hour Nancy Hanks from Atlanta to Savannah, GA which could be another way south and destination. All of the above miss some major population centers, which is not the best solution for a new single Amtrak route, but at least you could get to Florida in about 24 hours. If 'All Aboard Florida' gets done to Miami, then Orlando and Tampa are the primary destinations. I concur with Don Oltmann that the real solution is a new HSR system. Perhaps it should go down the center of the Interstate highways, when possible, to save time and money in its' construction.
Chicago to FL is a great "connect the dots" route. Chicago - Indy - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga - Atlanta - Jacksonville - etc. Hits lots of good population centers where the OD pairs for trips are in the rail sweet spot.
The problem is the rail routes that connect those dots are generally lousy. Unlike the roads in the north that were improved a great deal with profits plowed back into the plant, the routes in the south are pretty much where they were plopped down 150 years ago. Not very speedy alignments.
Maybe something could be cobbled together, piece-wise, from bits of existing alignments and bits of new HSR alignment, but that would require states work together. Atlanta to Nashville would be a good place to start, but GA can't even get it's own act together much less try to do a deal with TN. (They recently tried to steal water from TN, but got shot down).
GA has studied Atlanta to Jax, since that's nearly completely in GA. It was a fairly good route and could use existing alignments,, but they never had any serious intention of spending actual money. They also have seemingly continuous studies connecting the Atlanta airport with Chattanooga using HSR or Maglev (yes, seriously, Maglev), but these seem to aimed at funneling money to transportation consultant buddies of the DOT and to keep a Maglev startup in Cobb county afloat.
While I'd love nothing more than to see passenger train service restored between Chicago and Florida, realistically, you're making suggestions about the color of the dining room drapes in a house for which the money isn't available to purchase the land on which to build it. First, forget all about cherry picking routes and simply ask "What railroad is going to allow Amtrak to operate a train over their route." In all candor, IF a railroad would even entertain the idea of permitting a passenger train on its right of way, and IF reasonable compensation could be agreed upon, Amtrak would literally have to build an additional track and resignal the entire line simply to satisfy the freight railroad's claim that a single passenger train would unduly tax its capacity.
In 1971, the freight railroads were so anxious to exit the intercity passenger carriage business, that they not only agreed to contribute equipment and money to be relieved of their "burden," but they also pledged to give Amtrak's trains preference to underscore their intent to cooperate. All of this, of course, was predicated on the belief that Amtrak would cease to exist after two or three years and be given a decent burial, after which time they would be free to operate freight only over rails requiring far less maintenance. When Amtrak wouldn't go away, they felt betrayed. Their spirit of "cooperation" has gone form lukewarm to resistive to combative. They original Railpax legislation and agreements reached between Amtrak and its host railroads has left it in a far weakened position when demanding or realizing any kind of concessions, even down to such elementary pleas as adding a station stop to existing schedule.
I applaud your enthusiasm, but I wouldn't make reservations on that train anytime in the near or distant future.
I'd like to add my two cents to the CHI to MIA route. Living in Western NC, a 2.5 hour drive to either Knoxville or Atlanta to go Seattle or the Fla east coast would be awesome. Currently, for both the west coast and the Fla east coast, we have to go thru Washington. It would save Amtrak the requirement to transport us on an extra train in either direction.
I would suggest CHI-MEM- split off part of the train at MEM to BHM-ATL-Cordele-Valdosta, Jacksonville to Florida. The current schedule of the City of New Orleans would come close to the old IC 9-10 (the Seminole to Florida).
Also possible: run the daylight train that currently runs CHI-Carbondale down to Memphis and connect to BHM- on a schedule close to the Old City of Miami out of BHM to Florida. At Jacksonville, it could connect with the parade from New York.
Both of these could go around the CSX ...persons...(install your own words here) currently in charge using BNSF and NS tracks instead of CSX.
Either might work, though I think the reason the City of Miami schedule was doing so well late in the private era, despite bypassing Atlanta, is it had a long daytime "pickup/dropoff" run on either side of an overnight middle segment.
So in that vein extending the Saluki 220 miles south to Memphis, arriving at 6:45 PM might work (particularly if you could speed this up an hour to nearly match the old IC City times). Then you have a 528 mile daytime corridor that would more than likely be a very good improvement on the existing financial performance of the Saluki.
IF BNSF to Birmingham is available, use that, and select one of the two available routes to Jacksonville overnight, arriving in Jacksonville around 9:00 AM after 700 + miles from Memphis.
Then from Jacksonville run on the back of the Silver Meteor. So limited new train mileage is added to make the run of these three connected corridors. But it would be beyond the 1000 mile cutoff that makes sense for a same day turn of equipment, but then again so is the Silver service at it overcomes this by a similar pickup/dropoff pattern with a middle overnight segment. The airfare economy elbow is around 700-800 miles for a single stage flight so the end to end travel would be low except for those not able to fly or drive, though the intermediate travel might be quite high as a connecting flight would be required from those points.
All that being said, NRPC really needs to get some all-bedroom cars to make the middle overnight segment work alongside two classes of coach travel. You the three legs of the revenue stream to generate enough revenue per trainmile.
All this is actually just wishful until we get a hold of what is relatively being spent on the Interstates and allow for non-high speed projects to get money again.
An alternative to reach the FL Panhandle only, would be to create a stub train from Jackson, MS to Mobile, AL as that line was recently upgraded (as is trying to be done with the Greyhound connection), and then on to Pensacola. If the City was retimed for a 4 or 5PM departure out of Chicago as it once was, you could be in FL a little after lunch, which is check-in time anyway. This could even be an autotrain segment with few new trainmiles.
After reviewing many of the suggestions thrown out for a Chicago-Florida route, I tend to agree with the assessment that this is an exercise in connect-the-dots. All of the historic routes missed at least one large city, which may have contributed to the relatively early decline of this route. Putting together a reasonably practical new route may be next to impossible when you consider capacity limitations and the lack of even moderate speed allowances.
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