AAF announces a rolling stock pick but gives no details. Some speculation that it could be the Talgos at Beech Grove. However this poster wonders if that is even a possibility ? 2 train sets of Talgos would not be enough as well ? As well the following link notes 35,000 feet of rail laid out. Probably for the double track ?
AAF certainly know how to keep in the public eye ?
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/25/4308932/work-begins-finally-on-miami-to.html
I would be really surprised if FEC spent all this money on advertising and infrastructure and then risked it all on a Talgo trainset. Far more likely they have found a builder in the U.S. and signed them to strict confidentiality. Talgo is probably going to be restricted to government subsidized operations vs. private ones. Easier to sell Talgo to politicians that do not know any better than it is to private operators.
CMStPnP I would be really surprised if FEC spent all this money on advertising and infrastructure and then risked it all on a Talgo trainset. Far more likely they have found a builder in the U.S. and signed them to strict confidentiality. Talgo is probably going to be restricted to government subsidized operations vs. private ones. Easier to sell Talgo to politicians that do not know any better than it is to private operators.
Why is TALGO such a "risk"??
Besides more than 60 years of very successful operations in Spain and other European countries, Talgo trainsets have been in service on the Amtrak Cascades for some 20 years now. They have been some of the most popular -- and most reliable -- equipment operated in North America
And the newest Wisconsin-built Series 8 models are FRA-compliant -- and available now.
So, history and experience say that Talgo is much less of a risk than some never-before-used-in-North-America equipment, which may or may not even have even been designed yet.
So, what is the problem?
Dragoman [So, what is the problem?
[So, what is the problem?
FRA compliance means El-Zippo if exceptions and waivers are granted.
Private railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence. Talgo has neither. Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France.
Amtrak and public transit systems do not necessarily have to factor the above in because they are largely backed by a government entity. FEC has only bondholders and shareholders to support it financially. I am thinking that FEC is going to go with a U.S. Builder vs overseas company and i would be really shocked if they settled on ANYTHING built in Spain. That really would be betting the farm, if they did.
I rode a Talgo train between Portland and Seattle once. It gave a less stable ride than a conventional train and was much noisier. I would not purchase it for my railroad.
Mac
PNWRMNM I rode a Talgo train between Portland and Seattle once. It gave a less stable ride than a conventional train and was much noisier. I would not purchase it for my railroad. Mac
So I take it you would not buy a Fiat 500 for railroad crew transport or as a Hi rail vehicle......why not? It's built to U.S. Specifications? <sarcasm off>
CMStPnPPrivate railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence. Talgo has neither. Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France.
Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here. We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail. That said, I wouldn't select Talgo either. The FEC route is pretty straight (?) and handling curves are Talgo's main strength.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm CMStPnPPrivate railroads go for a LONG proven track record and standardization with other rolling stock both to save on spare parts costs and maintenence. Talgo has neither. Pretty sure the Liability Insurance on a Talgo would be higher than a similarly built passenger trainset built to U.S. Railway standards or even a HSR European trainset built in Germany or France. Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here. We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail. That said, I wouldn't select Talgo either. The FEC route is pretty straight (?) and handling curves are Talgo's main strength.
That said, unless something has drastically changed in the last 12 months, Talgo will not be a player in the All Aboard Florida deal. As a Central Florida resident I would have welcomed Talgo in service here but it's not my railroad.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
schlimm Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here. We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail.
Anything built for semi-high speed will be a European design, even if assembled here. We no longer have "a LONG proven track record" in the field of passenger rail.
European (even Bombardier, a Canadian-based company, has its rail division HQ and major operations in Germany), or Asian (Japan or Korea).
Unlike the locomotive industry, the only passenger rail manufacturer that could be considered truly American MIGHT be US Railcar, the successors to Rader/Colorado Railcar. And even they don't appear to have any actual manufacturing capability, only the designs, patents, etc.
Now if Budd were still around ...
Also, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.
CMStPnP Also, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.
"Step down to a Talgo trainset"?? "Step down" because of the higher customer satisfaction ratings the Cascades have been getting, compared to Northeast Regional services? Or "step down" because Talgos are built by a Spanish company? Of course, in that case, they probably won't like the new Viewliners either, built by CAF (yes, a Spanish company).
Perhaps you are only referring to the low-floor Talgo design. But aren't the Florida stations low-platform designs? (Since Sunset Superliners were able to use them, I assumed so.) But that would only make the step up that much easier.
Although it is very unlikely due to time constraints wouldn't it be interesting if AAF bought View liner-2s ? It might be that AAF can order some if Amtrak does not exercise its 70 car option now but an AAF order might enable Amtrak to extend the 70 car option to later ? Might give us some V-2 coaches and business class cars ?
Since the Amtrak V-2s will be serviced at Hialeah if AAF put a maintenance facility close by there would be a lot of parts combinability close by. ?
I ride Talgos pretty often, and find that they ride just as smoothly as conventional passenger cars, just differently. They do have a problem with jointed rail and switches, due to having one wheel per car, but do not sway in crossovers like conventional cars.
Actually, I see Talgo being a good option, as they are already designed, whereas other high speed trainsets are designed as EMUs or have electric power cars. Isn't FEC planning to use a high speed diesel like the F125?
Viewliners are also another good option, but with clearance problems absent, FEC may add on to the Midwest bilevel car order?
CMStPnPAlso, SE Florida is primarily a NYC and Northeast US Demographic.........another reason why they are probably not going to step down to a Talgo trainset from what they are already used to.
I've found the Cascades Talgos to be smoother riding than Amfleet cars, with far larger windows.
In other threads about the Wisconsin Talgos, you have consistently shown your dislike for Talgos. Can you explain your opposition?
Dragoman Perhaps you are only referring to the low-floor Talgo design. But aren't the Florida stations low-platform designs? (Since Sunset Superliners were able to use them, I assumed so.) But that would only make the step up that much easier.
They might buy the standard French and German bilevel design, which are compatible with high platforms and should be easily made compatible with FRA requirements and configured for high-speed corridor operation. Seamans, Adtrans, and Bombardier all build cars of this basic design. They are quiet, smooth-riding cars. Other European countries and Israel also use them.
How about these?
Work for high level platforms. If the "California Cars" are good for 125 mph - no reason these can't be, too. (with the proper suspension....)
American made (Phila?). Lots of seats per train-foot. Design current and proven. (and already paid for!) Rotem/Hyundai generally cheaper than others.
Lots of straight - flat in FL. Tilt would be a waste.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
There was some talk from AAF of joint stations with Tri-Rail. The commuter carrier uses the ubiquitous Bombardier Bi-Level car which is low-level loading. Has AAF reconsidered the 48" platforms? AAF doesn't say much and as a private company they don't have to.
D.Carleton There was some talk from AAF of joint stations with Tri-Rail. The commuter carrier uses the ubiquitous Bombardier Bi-Level car which is low-level loading. Has AAF reconsidered the 48" platforms? AAF doesn't say much and as a private company they don't have to.
If low level, then "California Cars" are a natural - an add on order to the midwest cars...
Talgo vs Superliner?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rd2wwtcZpk
The world may never know . . .
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
I'd go with the Bombardier Multilevels. The BBD cars are proven and in use far more places, including at pretty high speeds on NJT.
H-h-h-m-m-m-m, 400 seats per trainset sound awfully similar to what Amtrak has with the nextgeneration Accela. Have to say I like some of the new amenities especially the remote ordering system which was mention for Amtrak in another Forum and pooh-poohed by many of the Forum readers here.
http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2014/08/5-cool-amenities-planned-for-all-aboard-florida.html?page=2
oltmannd D.Carleton There was some talk from AAF of joint stations with Tri-Rail. The commuter carrier uses the ubiquitous Bombardier Bi-Level car which is low-level loading. Has AAF reconsidered the 48" platforms? AAF doesn't say much and as a private company they don't have to. If low level, then "California Cars" are a natural - an add on order to the midwest cars...
Midwest cars not on order yet? Thought they were.
http://www.nipponsharyousa.com/tp121106.htm
CEO of FEC on CNBC this morning talking about AAF and the Amtrak Accela trainsets in favorable terms but still did not mention their equipment order. Openly stated that Amtrak Accela makes a profit for Amtrak.
Interesting but I think schlimm called it right if it is not the Accela, trainset will be based on German or French designs for HSR.
NorthWest I've found the Cascades Talgos to be smoother riding than Amfleet cars, with far larger windows. In other threads about the Wisconsin Talgos, you have consistently shown your dislike for Talgos. Can you explain your opposition?
Good for you. I won't ever step foot in a Talgo and I am a Amtrak passenger. Americans deserve better than that crap. I don't doubt for a minute that some in the Pacific Northwest would ride on a Trailer Train Flatcar in their sandals and beads and pay fare if seat belts were available.
I guess it is a question of standards we set for ourselves. Some folks just have higher standards. Some are satisfied with a Yugo, Fiat 500, Hyundai, KIA. Others strive for more quality transportation. Frankly, if I am a private company trying to sell transportation in this country....it would be sheer madness for me to pick a Talgo trainset.
Intercity buses same deal. Some people are just overjoyed with Greyhound, Megabus and the like. Having spent some time on German buses........I would go for Setra, Mercedes or some other higher quality Motorcoach then what Greyhound or Megabus uses. Softer ride, nicer seats, larger windows and more amenities. Overall a better experience on the road. Too bad that Mercedes Bus does not market in the United States yet..........Americans have no clue what they are missing with Motorcoaches either and generally settle for second best in that arena.
Aircraft same deal. I'll bet you'll fly in a Bombardier or Brazilian Jet as well as you will a Boeing. For me if it ain't Boeing or Airbus..........I ain't going. Prefer Boeing as the passenger controls are better than Airbus generally.
CMStPnPGood for you. I won't ever step foot in a Talgo and I am a Amtrak passenger. Americans deserve better than that crap. I don't doubt for a minute that some in the Pacific Northwest would ride on a Trailer Train Flatcar in their sandals and beads and pay fare if seat belts were available.
So you've never ridden one, and yet you can pass judgment on ride quality and amenities. Says a lot.
(Ignoring rather insulting stereotyping of PNW residents.)
CMStPnPAircraft same deal. I'll bet you'll fly in a Bombardier or Brazilian Jet as well as you will a Boeing. For me if it ain't Boeing or Airbus..........I ain't going. Prefer Boeing as the passenger controls are better than Airbus generally.
Sort of a moot point, actually, seeing as neither Boeing nor Airbus manufactures a regional jet. Embraer and Bombardier don't make long distance planes, so they are not in competition.
CMStPnP I won't ever step foot in a Talgo and I am a Amtrak passenger. Americans deserve better than that crap. I don't doubt for a minute that some in the Pacific Northwest would ride on a Trailer Train Flatcar in their sandals and beads and pay fare if seat belts were available.
I rode in Talgo round trip Seattle to Vancouver BC a couple years ago. Great ride at speed, very comfy leather seats, great windows, perfect HVAC system. Only quibble was a bit jiggly on stick rail at limited speed.
I've had worse rides in Superliners and Amfleet.
CMStPnPSome folks just have higher standards. Some are satisfied with a Yugo, Fiat 500, Hyundai,
Do try to keep up with the times... http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Hyundai_Equus/
oltmannd CMStPnP I won't ever step foot in a Talgo and I am a Amtrak passenger. Americans deserve better than that crap. I don't doubt for a minute that some in the Pacific Northwest would ride on a Trailer Train Flatcar in their sandals and beads and pay fare if seat belts were available.
Cool! Where can we get that open air ride on a Trailer Train flat car?
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