The Only ATK making money is on the NEC. The existing system built by NYC, NH, and the Pennsy was in a great spot to provide passenger service to within easy walking distances for many people in congested areas. The Market for passenger service was already there. Transit authorities added to this over the years to make a fairly compatible system to get from one place to the other for work..
The Markets for passenger service are 1. work, 2. weekenders for museums, etc. 3. Sight seeing and longer range trips.
ATK has had to get the Govt involved in many areas of the US for track upgrades, and this includes the upper end of the NEC. The Owner of that track, and the freight operators, want NO part of the costs to put in welded rail and new signalling for high speed rail..So the Govt helps pay and at same time threatens the railroad owners to get the job done. I have witnessed this first hand. BUT, after the upgrades were done, the track owners passenger business train runs the rails on occasion....
Having had many a discussion with an engineer and conductor who ran many NH Passenger trains, I can tell you the railroads do NOT like Passengers, and, while most do not smoke ( compared to 1955), the maintenance of people is huge. They take up about 8-10 times their own space on a car ( including toilets, seats etc)
Outsourcing? Only real type to outsource could be #3 I mentioned above, long distance sight seeing. The Illinois Rail museum Nebraska Zephyr type trip with maybe retro eqquipment with MODERN power and electronics may ,maybe bring a market into place. I agree that Amtrak and long distance trains at this point is Not working, and its often late.
Solutions for Amtrak, as is, to continue? Do the same as we do with highways, make more lanes. We have dedicated commuter lanes on highways, and dedicated commuter train tracks in cities. The Govt money spent to "upgrade" a private owned track, then to share it is better than nothing, but not really what will make a train appealing. For #1, and #2.. ON TIME is the attraction..., funny thats the same thing the freight customers want.. ON TIME, but they have to travel much slower.
It seems that the original idea for cost cutting in passenger service , the BUDD cars, are still viable today,even on some distances, and this is proved in Canada where they dont need a whole consist running out 40-50-80 miles on a branch line.
A REAL "semi "passenger Money maker for ATK would be to run a couple NAMED trains from New England, ( At least as far north as middle of Mass), and another from the Ohio area, WITH the AUTO TRAIN CARS twice a year south and twice a year north to / from Florida. Call one the Obvious.. "Snowbird". OR this could be run by Pan Am Southern I suppose. Mamny retired folks could get down to just ONE car, avoid flying and WOULD spend for this. Driving all the way past the Beltway to get a auto train is just too much for many to make it worth it..
Just how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ do you want the "Government" (that is my tax dollar and your tax dollar) to spend to increase the clearances EVERYWHERE along the NEC to get the Auto Train cars to the 'midde of Mass.' How much return on that investment should the "Government" expect and in what form?
I am guessing that somewhere between $30B and $50B would be required - just for clearance projects. Track projects????? What private property would have to be bought at market values to expand the width of the right of way and how much would that cost?
Anything can be done for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. How much is it worth?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
We had a big, long, fairly well-done thread on expanding Auto-Train service to the Northeast here about a year ago.
Auto-Train service is more than a little pointless anywhere on the existing NEC for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is that origin and destination locations for an automobile-ferry service are associated with a radius of convenient drive time and conditions, not simple popcons or served community density. Ideally the A-T locations will be where 'counterflow' in traffic patterns exists during the time automobiles would be expected to be travelling toward loading, or away from actual departure from the facility (which of course are different from actual train-operations parameters.
I have no hesitation in saying there are likely to be multiple corridors that would benefit from Auto-Train service. I look forward to (renewed) discussion of where the o/d pairs, and intermediate stops and services, for some of these would be. BUT THAT COMMISSARY SITUATION HAS TO BE FIXED DEFINITIVELY FIRST.
OvermodBUT THAT COMMISSARY SITUATION HAS TO BE FIXED DEFINITIVELY FIRST.
Relieved to see another poster come to that conclusion, rather than attempt ignore/rationalize it.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Barflyer,
I'm afraid I don't follow your thinking about the Northeast Corridor. That line is owned either by Amtrak or by individual states it passes through. Shortly after Amtrak was created it upgraded the line using concrete ties and welded rail. And in the '90's it extended the catenary from New Haven to Boston.
While freight railroads do use the NEC line they do not own any part of it. And further upgrading (such as replacing the catenary south of New Haven) will not be done by any private company.
I find your auto train idea from Boston fascinating. However, the autos would need to be hauled on flatcars or something similar in order to get through the existing tunnels. Whether or not such a train would be a money maker I don't know. As things stand Amtrak's Florida trains now end at New York Penn Station and do not go on to Boston. If carrying autos by train would work it could be possible to arrange with freight railroads to carry the cars while passengers ride on either the Silver Star or Silver Meteor which, for these special trips, will originate at Boston, perhaps at the Route 128 station.
A less ambitious plan would be simply for freight railroads to carry the cars back and forth with scheduling coordinated so people could drop their cars off at a convenient station and meet them at a convenient station in Florida and ride existing Amtrak trains. But the freight railroads would have to be interested in it.
Overmod,
On the Northeast Corridor Trains Amtrak offers only snack bars. Perhaps a fast food chain could be persuaded to take over those snack bars.
Food service has always been a money loser for railroads.
I doubt very much that the food services on the NEC are big money loosers. Anyone have the facts on this?
Dave Klepper: You are quite correct, according to the Amtrak OIG report from Oct. 2013. The NEC is not a big money loser.
http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/oig-a-2014-001_0.pdf
Go to page 3, Table 1.
NEC Rev. = $36.5 mil. Onboard Labor = $19.0 mil. Commissary = $16.7 mil. Profit = $0.8 mil.
LD = $63.5 mil. = $75.3 mil. = $59.8 mil. Loss = $71.5 mil.
State-supported corridors had a small loss of $1.3 mil.
Of the LD trains, the biggest loser by far was the AutoTrain, with a loss of $13.09 mil. most of that coming from its enormous commissary costs, which were almost those of the CZ and SWC combined.
schlimm OvermodBUT THAT COMMISSARY SITUATION HAS TO BE FIXED DEFINITIVELY FIRST. Relieved to see another poster come to that conclusion, rather than attempt ignore/rationalize it.
More than fix it. They need to change the culture that allowed it to exist as it does the first place!
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Answer again, I think ATK is including AT linen and other non-food, non-beverage costs into the commisary costs,, and not doing so with other LD trains.
daveklepper Ans.gain, I think ATK is including AT linen and other non-food, non-beverage costs into the commisary costs,, and not doing so with other LD trai
Ans.gain, I think ATK is including AT linen and other non-food, non-beverage costs into the commisary costs,, and not doing so with other LD trai
Unless matters have changed, Sunnyside commisary only handled food and beverage matters, based on a fan-trip visit to the place long before Amtrak. Pullman had separate facilities. I have not heard of any change in this situation. Penn Central did take over the Pullman facilities at Summyside at the time of the PRR-NYC merger. Until the New Haven was absorbed, Pullman provided the New Haven sleepers in Boston for round trips, so they would not be required to use the PC facility. Historically, Pullman facilities and RR commisaries were separate.. Do have any evidence that Amtrak has changed this anywhere? In Chicago?
But the Auto Train, even when Garfield began it, was separate and new, and it was logical that he would have economized by having one facility to handle all supplies including food and beverage.
daveklepperBut the Auto Train, even when Garfield began it, was separate and new, and it was logical that he would have economized by having one facility to handle all supplies including food and beverage.
The cost of commissaries was properly reported in the examination of the category, food and beverage operations, not including sleepers.
Ae you certain about Autotrain? How?
You are the one who challenges the competence of the auditors. Therefore it is incumbent on you to provide contrary evidence, not just pure conjecture.
In the response to the most recent (Oct. 31, 2013) Amtrak says it is fixing the commissary situation and within 5 years there will be no more losses. The IG agrees Amtrak has reduced its food service losses considerably but they are still $72 million per year. In his response Joe Boardman pointed out that the IG analyzed food service alone, its points were valid and Amtrak will be adopting most or all of them. At the same time he made the point that Amtrak has to consider the issue as it relates to passenger satisfaction and brand concerns and some other things. He is pledged to do that.
My impression is that Joe Boardman, while acknowledging the validity of the IG's points, is saying that Amtrak and only Amtrak will make the final decision and that decision will be on Amtrak's timetable. And Boardman makes no mention at all of the criticism that would accomplish the biggest saving: Contracting out food service.
I don't guess you will be completely persuaded by Joe Boardman's response. To be really frank, I am not completely persuaded either. He will move slowly but this will not be a priority for Amtrak or for him.
John
PS. On October 11 Joe McHugh, Vice President for Governmental Affairs, sent to Congress and update about progress on PRIIA. The one issue addressed was Amtrak's progress on making stations accessible for people with disabilities. It listed the projects that have been completed and also the projects that have not been. The projects not completed were not done because the continuing resolution and sequester reduced funding from $80 million to $50 million. No other issue is addressed.
J.
Schlimm, my evidence that the AT commisary also supplies the linen and other supplies for the Auto Train is that there isn't any other facility at either Lorton or Sanford that could do it. And it isn't a mistake of auditors. They don't write food costs. They write Commisary.
I would suggest you read the report. The audit was for food and beverage services, not sleepers. The commissary labor charges that are out of line are for the Auto-Train only. The other train commissary labor charges were all within the same range. Cost accountants have been assigning various labor cost to the appropriate cost centers for years. It's how it is done.
"Other railroads consider the cost of food and beverages in establishing their ticketprices."
Obviously a problem there.
"Contracting for food and beverage services would have significant implications for theworkforce;however,the financial benefits could be significant."
Table 3. Average Labor Costs for Amtrak and Railroads That Contract for Food and Beverage Services Category Average Labor Costs (FY 2012) Hourly wage plus all benefitsDowneaster $10.00
Alaska Railroad $10.38
Rocky Mountaineer $14.70
Amtrak $41.19
The labor costs are too low for the others. Amtrak should be more in line, perhaps paying wage plus benefits around $25.00. ignoring this opportunity truly puts Amtrak at risk.
schlimm "Other railroads consider the cost of food and beverages in establishing their ticketprices." Obviously a problem there. "Contracting for food and beverage services would have significant implications for theworkforce;however,the financial benefits could be significant." Table 3. Average Labor Costs for Amtrak and Railroads That Contract for Food and Beverage Services Category Average Labor Costs(FY 2012) Hourly wage plus all benefitsDowneaster $10.00 Alaska Railroad $10.38 Rocky Mountaineer $14.70 Amtrak $41.19 The labor costs are too low for the others. Amtrak should be more in line, perhaps paying wage plus benefits around $25.00. ignoring this opportunity truly puts Amtrak at risk.
Table 3. Average Labor Costs for Amtrak and Railroads That Contract for Food and Beverage Services Category Average Labor Costs(FY 2012) Hourly wage plus all benefitsDowneaster $10.00
With the non-Amtrak number it is obvious there aren't any benefits beyond being allowed to continue to breathe.
Schlimm, since you have access to the figures, see if there is a line item anywhere in any cost analysis of long-distance services for linen and other supplies for sleeping cars for AT, and then check for other LD trains. I think you may find the item missing for AT. Simply, the other trains use facilities left over from the Pullman operations, in some cases operated for some time by the railroads succeeding Pullman in specific situations. But there were no pior Pullman facilities at Sanford or Lorton. So I am completely confident that indeed it was an auditor mistake, that they simply did not know or investigate that the AT commisary also handles supplies for the sleepers. Because there isn't any other facility that can do it. And not being railfans or railroad passengers, they would not think of investigating.
Possibly you can prove me wrong, but I think that if you investigate you will find I am correct ont this matter.
I agree the wage differential seems out-of-line, but there again there are good explanaitions, and ACY can explain them far better than I can. But I have already stated I recommend going to a Sky-Chefs Acela approach to reduce costs while retaining quality.
daveklepperSchlimm, since you have access to the figures, see if there is a line item anywhere in any cost analysis of long-distance services for linen and other supplies for sleeping cars for AT, and then check for other LD trains.
Dave: I do not have any access beyond the public documents such as the Amtrak OIG report in this case. I haven't found a similar document for sleeper service breakout so far. However, if I do, I will check. As it stands, I can only deal with the facts available. But based on my experience dealing with auditors, it is not likely they made such an error. However, one explanation for the high labor costs of the Sanford commissary is that there are no economies of size since it serves no other trains. But since it supposedly is outsourced on a contract to Aramark, that should not be a factor.
As to the Amtrak food labor wages (including benefits) I strongly favor livable wages, but the published numbers seem out of line. Looking strictly at hourly wages, Amtrak paid an average of $25.54 in FY 2012 (plus another $15.65 in benefits). In many government jobs (teachers, for example, with higher minimum requirements) there is a tradeoff - lower wages in exchange for better benefits, especially at retirement time). Based on 180 hrs. work per month X 12, the Amtrak food labor charges = $88,970 per year (including benefits); wages only = $55,166 per year.
"Labor rate based on the average hourly rate plus hourly benefit rate for the highest wage position (lead service attendant) and lowest wage position (service attendant). Amtrak benefits include medical insurance, railroad retirement, postâemployment benefits, dental insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, unemployment, railroad workers compensation and administrative fees."
Well, we certainly agree ways should or rather must be found to cut costs while preserving quality!
But also compare wages of a locomotive engineer with those of a bus driver, truck driver, taxi driver.
But it may work the other way too How about dining car people versus airline stewardesses?
What strikes me here is that there is no indication that Amtrak intends to even consider outsourcing food and beverage service.
And as far as the OIG's other recommendations Amtrak will consider them one by one but not get though the list for 5 years.
So nothing will happen soon. Most likely some, but only some, of the OIG's suggestions will be in place 5 years from now.
Meanwhile Amtrak's focus on making all stations ADA compliant does not suggest there is any consideration of cutting back long distance services.
How are the Acela meals handled? Ae they outsourced?
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