Amtrak #22 north from San Antonio

[Deggesty]

Sam1, does the northbound Texas Eagle use the former MKT or former IGN when leaving San Antonio? I understand that it backs at least to Tower 112. If it takes the former MKT, where does it move to the former IGN?

Thanks,

[Anonymous]

Deggesty

Sam1, does the northbound Texas Eagle use the former MKT or former IGN when leaving San Antonio? I understand that it backs at least to Tower 112. If it takes the former MKT, where does it move to the former IGN?

Thanks, 

I believe that it uses the former IGN (MP) route, but I am not sure.  Although I frequently take the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, I am not really familiar with the rail scene in SA, other than around the station.

The arrival into San Antonio and the departure is convoluted to say the least.  As the train arrives from the north, which is usually after dark, one can see the The Tower of the Americas, which is located close to the Amtrak station, from the left side of the train. The train appears to circle around the city as it comes off the UP line from San Marcos and joins the east/west line. It is as if the engineer is lost and is looking for the station.

Number 22 backs out of the San Antonio station, which is the former Southern Pacific station, for at least several miles. I don't recall seeing a tower. It is a time consuming maneuver, as is the arrival routing of No. 21 into San Antonio. They add a seemingly considerable of time to the Eagle's schedule.  

Speaking of the station, Amtrak does not actually occupy the former station.  It has been turned into an events center.  It is very attractive.  Instead, Amtrak occupies what appears to be a former baggage and storage building.  It is pitiful.  It is not large enough to accommodate all of the passengers usually traveling on Number 22, which means many of them have to stand outside in all kinds of weather until the conductors begin the boarding process at 6:45 a.m. for the 7:00 a.m. departure.  

The Lone Star Rail Authority proposes to implement commuter (intercity) passenger rail service from Georgetown, which is approximately 30 miles north of Austin, to San Antonio. If it is to be competitive with ground transportation, the authority is going to have to find a better way to get into and out of San Antonio.

[rcdrye]

UP has (or had at one time) the option of using either the former MKT or IGN lines from Austin to San Antonio.  The "normal" route is ex ATSF Fort Worth to Temple, ex-MKT Temple to Austin, ex-IGN Austin to San Antonio, ex-SP backing in.  The ex-IGN line crosses under the Sunset Route north and east of the former SP station.  The backup move is a little more than a mile, the junction is under I-37 directly south of downtown.  Grading and property line marks suggest there may have been an interchange track in the NW quadrant between the Sunset Route and the ex-IGN route at one time.

[Anonymous]

rcdrye

UP has (or had at one time) the option of using either the former MKT or IGN lines from Austin to San Antonio.  The "normal" route is ex ATSF Fort Worth to Temple, ex-MKT Temple to Austin, ex-IGN Austin to San Antonio, ex-SP backing in.  The ex-IGN line crosses under the Sunset Route north and east of the former SP station.  The backup move is a little more than a mile, the junction is under I-37 directly south of downtown.  Grading and property line marks suggest there may have been an interchange track in the NW quadrant between the Sunset Route and the ex-IGN route at one time.

I believe the normal routing of Nos 21 and 22 is BNSF (ATSF) from Fort Worth to Temple, UP (MKT) from Temple to Taylor, and UP (IGN/MP) from Taylor to San Antonio. No. 21 does not back into San Antonio; No. 22 backs out of the station.

[rcdrye]

Sam1

No. 21 does not back into San Antonio; No. 22 backs out of the station.

That was a headscratcher - along with seeing the skyline on the LEFT on arrival.  The track arrangement from the old IGN to the SP station requires a backup move.  A bit of time on Google maps...  There is a connecting track between the former IGN and former MKT a few miles northeast of San Antonio that looks fairly new (UP era) that would permit 21 to circle around the city from northeast around to the west and south and end up at the SP station facing north on the east side of downtown.  The train gets turned into the bargain!  22 backs out and exits San Antonio via the IGN line.

[Anonymous]

rcdrye

Sam1

No. 21 does not back into San Antonio; No. 22 backs out of the station.

That was a headscratcher - along with seeing the skyline on the LEFT on arrival.  The track arrangement from the old IGN to the SP station requires a backup move.  A bit of time on Google maps...  There is a connecting track between the former IGN and former MKT a few miles northeast of San Antonio that looks fairly new (UP era) that would permit 21 to circle around the city from northeast around to the west and south and end up at the SP station facing north on the east side of downtown.  The train gets turned into the bargain!  22 backs out and exits San Antonio via the IGN line.

Sounds right to me.  Last month I took the Eagle to San Antonio. I was sitting with some folks from Longview. When the Tower of the Americas came into view, one of the women called her husband and told him that the train would arrive in about five minutes.  Wrong!  From the time you see the tower, it takes nearly 25 to 30 minutes to get to the station. The train crawls along at 10 to 15 mph. 

[blue streak 1]

Sam1

I believe that it uses the former IGN (MP) route, but I am not sure.  Although I frequently take the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, I am not really familiar with the rail scene in SA, other than around the station.

The arrival into San Antonio and the departure is convoluted to say the least.  As the train arrives from the north, which is usually after dark, one can see the The Tower of the Americas, which is located close to the Amtrak station, from the left side of the train. The train appears to circle around the city as it comes off the UP line from San Marcos and joins the east/west line. It is as if the engineer is lost and is looking for the station.

Number 22 backs out of the San Antonio station, which is the former Southern Pacific station, for at least several miles. I don't recall seeing a tower. It is a time consuming maneuver, as is the arrival routing of No. 21 into San Antonio. They add a seemingly considerable of time to the Eagle's schedule.  

SAM1's statement that the routes are convoluted is quite correct..  After an early arrival at SAS on my Sunset trp to HOU  I spoke to a crewman who tried to explain the situation to me. For those who have a SPS map of San Antionia this explanation may become clearer..

1.  All crews for the Eagle are qualified on both the IGN & MKT  routes both ways into SAS.

2.  The preferred route into & out of San Marcos to SAS is the old IGN route.

3. The direct IGN route into SAS is straight down to the west & south of down town to a "U"  shaped route coming in on the left side of the U , then joins UP  ( SAAP -- SP ) at tower 109 to go along bttom of  "U"   to tower 112.

4. At tower 112 train turns north up the right side of the U to the SAS station ( half way up  U  ) on the left with the Tower of America to the left of the station.

5.  The back up move from the station returns to the left bottom side of the "U" passing tower 112  ( SP Sunset route )  backing onto the southwest leg of the IGN at tower 105  ( Union Stock Yards )

6. after proceeding back onto the IGN under a restricting signal ( used to be lunar ) train stops and then proceeds forward north  east on IGN to tower 109 and normal route.

7. Probably towers 105,109, & 112 are now all combined and maybe remote ?

? 

Now that is just the operation if there is no connections either direction to the Sunset. ( 3 days a week )

    ----------------- Now for complications  --------------

8.  If IGN route blocked in any way then MKT route can be used in either direction though much slower.  Note top side of  "U" on east side is east west for 1-1/2 miles then turns north east.

9.  If unable to use IGN both ways on the above 3 days no Sunset connections either way the Eagle has to wye at towers 105 & 109.

10.  On any day If Eagle's loco is low on fuel then the Eagle will use the MKT route either inbound or outbound and stop at UP's East Yards'  refueling facility ( located on east side of "U's" east west rails )" to top off  loco.  

The Sunset complicates this situation.

11.  If Sunset arrives from west on time then it stops south of station and drops its 2 Eagle cars and then the eagle train set backs onto the cars and departs either way as described on # 2 -- 10      .  No explanation how west bound connection is accomplished

12.  The east and west bound Sunsets always stop at UP's East Yards fueling for diesel.. 

13.  If a an east bound Sunset loco is swapped to Eagle then both trains will stop at fueling facility.

14.  The same for west bound loco swap then both trains will stop at fueling facility. 

15.  So whenever there is a loco swap the swapped locos will operate over the MKT to refuel.

 

Now can't we think of a few more variations that were not explained  ? ? ?  

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Blue Streak,

Thanks for the explanation for the routing of the Texas Eagle into and out of San Antonio.  I have never understood how the routing worked.

I have taken the Eagle into and out of San Antonio at least 40 times.  I don't recall ever running over the former MKT line.

It would be a rare occasion for the Eagle's loco's to be refueled in San Antonio. They are refueled in Fort Worth, and I presume that they have enough fuel to run from Fort Worth to SA and back to Fort Worth.

[Deggesty]

Thanks, all. As Blue Streak tells us, there are many combinations possible since the crews are qualified to work on both the former IGN and the former MKT.

Taking the information from all of you, using the SPV Texas Atlas, and Altamont Press' "Texas Regional Timetable #1" (2001), I have the impression that the IGN does have the better track between Centex (where the MKT and IGN come together above San Marcos), being CTC all the way down to IGN San Antonio (mp 259.1), yard limits 1.8 miles to Apache Jct./Tower 109, YL 1.6 miles to Tower 112, which is the junction with the line to El Paso, and 2 MT CTC the 1.7 miles on in to the Amtrak station.

Using the MKT sb, the line is CTC from Centex (mp 208.3) to North Chertz (mp 236.8), then is ABS TWC to Tower 112 (mp 259.8/211.0), where it then backs to mp 209.3 (Amtrak San Antonio).

Except for YL track, the passenger train speed limit is 70 mph.

Whichever way, the yard limits or backing slow the train.

Leaving, #22 could well back the 3.4 miles all the way to Tower 105, where the IGN crosses the line to El Paso, then proceed for 1.3 miles under YL to IGN San Antonio. It would be possible to back only to Tower 112, and then head out on the MKT--and this route is 3.3 miles shorter..

Incidentally, Amtrak now uses the Intermodal Station in San Marcos, which is right by the IGN. In 1997, when my wife I and I rode from Chicago to Los Angeles, the station was on the MKT (we slept through it, and did not wake up until in the morning, in San Antonio). Amtrak gives the street address now as 338 S. Guadalupe, but Bing maps shows it as being closer to the MKT track. However, the map that Greyhound uses shows it right by the IGN. So, if #22 leaves San Antonio on the MKT, it has to cross to the IGN, possibly at New Braunfels.

Thanks again.

[blue streak 1]

Sam1

Speaking of the station, Amtrak does not actually occupy the former station.  It has been turned into an events center.  It is very attractive.  Instead, Amtrak occupies what appears to be a former baggage and storage building.  It is pitiful.  It is not large enough to accommodate all of the passengers usually traveling on Number 22, which means many of them have to stand outside in all kinds of weather until the conductors begin the boarding process at 6:45 a.m. for the 7:00 a.m. departure.  

The Lone Star Rail Authority proposes to implement commuter (intercity) passenger rail service from Georgetown, which is approximately 30 miles north of Austin, to San Antonio. If it is to be competitive with ground transportation, the authority is going to have to find a better way to get into and out of San Antonio.

SAM1:  Source did say that refueling of Eagle at SAS was only as needed.   I would guess that the current rerouting of #22 east bound on the Sunset route would have it refuel since it sometimes misses Ft. Worth ? A prudent item ?  What if another detour of the detour ?   It only took my Sunset about 12 minutes for the refueling.

 

Now about the SAS station:  Any corrections welcome -----

 

SAM1  ----  is correct that the SAS station is pitiful. 

To give readers an idea of the layout of the station from north to south is ---------

1.  Tracks 2 & 3 are north - south

2.  There is a track 1 west of Tk 2 that leads offf track 2 southbound that crosses commerce st and is then occupied by a TNO 2-8-2 (?)  and dead ends south by the original station. The south end of tk #1 appears paved over and may have always been a stub or may have continued to a switch to tk #2 past the present station?

3. North of Commerce St. is the parking spot for the protect sleeper & coach either on tk 1 or a stub end tk A ? Coach was on the north end of its parking spot with ground power cabinets to conect to the south end of the cars.

4.  The original station is south of Commerce street and west of tracks 1, 2,3 & an unknown # of freight tracks.

5.  The original station appeared very large and in excellent condition.  SAM's explanation of its use now explains as to why there were two very large A/C units in place on the SE corner of the station. It also appeared that a baggage and express area was part of the origina station.

6.  About 150 ft south of the original station is what appears as an old freight house ( ? ) that is the present station.  The track #1 may have been close to this station.There is open access to the north side of present station and platform. 

7.    What SAM did not mention is that the crowd is even worse when passengers are waiting for both the east bound Eagle and Sunset.  I walked off the waiting area & measured  it at aboutt 16 ft by 22 ft not counting small restrooms.  Many passengers  sitting on floor, walking outside, stayed in cars, and even taxi cabs when I was there.   

8.  Ticket area about 10 ft deep on south end,  then small baggage area another 24 ft,  then crew & maintenance area another 24 ft.  That is all of that building.

Now the platforms --------

9.  Somewhere south of commerce street the canopy  starts.  Lighting is terrible.  The lights are the very old style of hanging dull metal reflectors with incadescent lights.  Worse still many of  the light fixtures have had 60 watt equivalent or less CFL bulbs installed which do not fit the reflector pattern of the fixtures so much light from the CFLs is lost.  The Canopy proceeds south to about the baggage area and then stops.

10.  There is also a canopy between tracks 2 & 3 but cannot give an details.

11.  The station platform west of track 2 is fine until at the baggage room then platform is rough and broken up asphalt further south for 3 - 500 ft and not lit except public street lighting. 

12.  Our early arrival at SAS had us stop about 1000 ft south of the station.  The HEP was stopped, the last three cars uncoupled, HEP started and Sunset proceeded to station on track 2 stopping just short of commerce street which has a time out circuit.

13.  Then the Eagle parked on track 3 backed south and coupled to the three thru eagle cars, HEP connected and Eagle pulled back onto  track 3 stopping short of Commerce street and occupied three back cars access to asphalt part of platform and station.  Complete 1500 mile checks then done on both trains

14.  If Eagle from CHI arrives after west bound Sunset how cars swapped unknown.

 

After reading the PRIIA 2009 report  for the Sunset  SAS  station  ----------

 

14.  The westbound Eagle will back into the station instead of head into the station using the present back out route or on those occasional times head in on the MKT route on track 3..

15..     The Sunset  from NOL will stop on track 2 short of the station on track 2.

16.  Loco from Sunset will cross  over to track 3 to couple onto Eagle.for 2 locos to LAX>

17 Both trains will proceed south to tower 112 and then take their respective routes.

Eastbound Eagle from LAX will pull in;  one loco detach and couple to waiting Sunset cars on track 2

18.  Trains leave now as previously posted. ? ?

19. Eagle from LAX may arrive as Sunset does now ? ?   

 

The station at  SAS will be completely inadequate under the PRIIA plan. The anticipated on and offs may increase from 47k to 107 k.  That number will only be exceeded by LAX & CHI and the latter 2 have much more train waiting space.

 

SO any thoughts  ? ?

 

[Anonymous]

The current re-routing of Number 22 (October 14 - 31, November 8 - 15 and November 21 - 22) is from Taylor to Longview via. Hearne, Palestine, and Jacksonville.  The posting about seeing Number 22 running east on the Sunset Route to Flatonia and then north to Giddings, etc. probably was a one-off. The previous day No. 21 was several hours late arriving into San Antonio, which may have been due to a problem between Austin and San Antonio. In the case of this routing the locomotive probably was refueled in San Antonio.

Unless there has been a recent change, the number of Texas Eagle through cars is one coach and one sleeper. When I take the train from Temple for San Antonio, the crew herds all the through passengers onto one coach. Or onto the through sleeper if they are first class passengers.

I don't understand the loco changes you described. The eastbound Sunset Limited arrives into San Antonio, I think, with two locomotives. The southbound Texas Eagle arrives in San Antonio with one locomotive. If they take the locomotive off the Texas Eagle and transfer it to the westbound Sunset Limited, then they have to take one of the locomotives off the eastbound Sunset Limited and transfer it to the northbound Texas Eagle.  

The schedule would permit the aforementioned transfer of locomotives, although I am not sure whey they would do it inasmuch as it would result in an extra switching of locomotives.  However, servicing may be a reason.

In September I took the Eagle to San Antonio. For the return trip I got to the station about 6:40 a.m. The Eagle had its locomotive and was ready to go. The eastbound Sunset Limited was running very late, and it had just pulled into the station.  It only had one locomotive, which suggests that it had dropped the second locomotive at the service point that you described.  In any case, it would not have been in time to provide its second locomotive to the Eagle.  Had the Eagle transferred its locomotive to the westbound Sunset Limited, which departs at 2:45 a.m., it would not have had a locomotive for its 7:00 a.m. departure, unless Amtrak keeps an extra locomotive in San Antonio.

If the southbound Eagle is too late into San Antonio to transfer the through cars to the westbound Sunset Limited, I believe the reserve cars are coupled to the Sunset so as to balance the equipment needs out of LAX.  The through passengers probably would be out of luck.  With the improvement in the Eagle's on-time performance, I suspect this would be a rare event.  To the best of my knowledge it has not happened since the schedule change.

[blue streak 1]

SAM1 you have provided us with another way connections can be done.  You travel may times to SAS so maybe you can start a thread that riders can post their experiences.  We may all be interested in the days that the Eagle connects to west bound Sunset.

[Anonymous]

This thread is relatively short, so I would rather post info regarding the Sunset Limited/ Texas Eagle transfer in San Antonio to it.

I was in Alpine, TX over the last five days. On Saturday night I was at the station to watch No. 2.  Alpine is a crew change point for Amtrak and UP.  It is also a great place to chat with the crew members who are waiting for their assigned train.

Whilst I was waiting for No. 2 to come in, I struck up a conversation with the Amtrak engineers.  They are based in San Antonio. They run from there to Alpine and back. One of the engineers told me that the procedure in San Antonio is to drop the through cars for the Texas Eagle, as per prior comments in this thread. Both of the Sunset locomotives continue on to New Orleans, but the second locomotive is run in dead mode.  However, according to the engineers, it provides electric power for the cars.

I found out something interesting about Amtrak's engineer crew assignments.  According to the aforementioned engineers, if the engine crew is scheduled to be on the train for less than five hours, only one engineer is assigned to the run.  However, if the crew is scheduled to be on the train for more than five hours, two engineers are required.

The engineers told me that because of increased freight traffic on the UP, they are more challenged getting into San Antonio on time.

They also clarified a question that I had regarding the Austin engine crew change.  Apparently Amtrak determined that it is more cost effective to have one engineer run from San Antonio to Austin, and another engineer run from Austin to Fort Worth as opposed to having both engineers run from San Antonio to Fort Worth.  

The San Antonio based engineer drives the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Austin. The northbound Eagle is scheduled into Austin at 9:31 a.m.  He lays over in a hotel during the day, and then drives the southbound Eagle, which is scheduled to depart Austin at 6:30 p.m., to San Antonio.    

Both the engineers I spoke with are qualified to run from San Antonio to Alpine, San Antonio to Beaumont, and San Antonio to Austin.