snarematt schlimm I will concede that some people ride Amtrak daily, in the NEC some people? Apparently, it's quite a few people (more every year). My point wasn't about syntax, that was your point. My point was about people increasingly choosing to live in urban areas and that choice being supported by Amtrak. Regardless of if people ride it every day, every week, or if they call it short distance or commuter service, these trains are making it easier to live in cities without the aid of an automobile. I'm going to guess that people who don't own a car tend to drive less (do I need a citation for that too?) and therefore are involved in less "passenger miles". So again, if we want an efficient system that reduces the total cost, we have to look at the total picture, and that includes the lifestyle of transit users.
schlimm I will concede that some people ride Amtrak daily, in the NEC
some people? Apparently, it's quite a few people (more every year).
My point wasn't about syntax, that was your point. My point was about people increasingly choosing to live in urban areas and that choice being supported by Amtrak.
Regardless of if people ride it every day, every week, or if they call it short distance or commuter service, these trains are making it easier to live in cities without the aid of an automobile. I'm going to guess that people who don't own a car tend to drive less (do I need a citation for that too?) and therefore are involved in less "passenger miles".
So again, if we want an efficient system that reduces the total cost, we have to look at the total picture, and that includes the lifestyle of transit users.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR Finally, while all of Amtrak's metrics are important I have not heard any suggestion of deliberately misrepresenting any statistics by Amtrak.
Finally, while all of Amtrak's metrics are important I have not heard any suggestion of deliberately misrepresenting any statistics by Amtrak.
Intentional misrepresentation of statistics by Amtrak's management? That's pretty harsh! Putting spin on the numbers or not telling the whole story. Happens all the time.
Amtrak trumpets the increase in ridership and revenues without addressing costs. It only presents one side of the financial ledger. Or Boardman has told the Congress that Amtak recovers 88 per cent of its operating costs through the fare box. But fails to mention the capital costs, which are part of the financial statements.
Failure to disclose the complete picture is misrepresentation in my book. Practically everyone, however, spins the numbers to make his or her cause look good. But it is not being honest!
I suspect Amtrak can run a report on the number of customers that it has. So too could the airlines, bus companies, cruise ship operators, etc., thanks in large part to the power of computers. These organizations report passengers, as opposed to customers, and therefore tend to imply that they have more customers than is the case.
I have submitted a FOIA request for NEC segment load factors and the number of Amtrak's customers. It will be interesting to see what I get and how much Amtrak will bill me for the information. Mercifully, they have to give me an estimate of the cost before digging out the information. If it is too much, I won't buy it.
The DOT counts licensed motorists. One license, one motorist, although some license holders may not drive. But most of them do. DOT reports vehicle miles traveled because it is difficult to know how many people are in the vehicle. There have been attempts to get a count of the average number of people in a vehicle, but it is a challenge to come up with an accurate number.
Sam1 [The DOT counts licensed motorists. One license, one motorist, although some license holders may not drive. But most of them do.
[The DOT counts licensed motorists. One license, one motorist, although some license holders may not drive. But most of them do.
That probably is true in your state however I know 30+ seniors that have licenses but do not drive. That is because of Ga's draconian voter ID laws. We do have maybe 500 seniors ( pop 4000 ) in our town but I do not know how many drive.
Retirement states such as Folorida , Arizona may also have a large number of non driving licensed drivers??
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I don't want to be defensive about Amtrak or Joe Boardman, Sam. I worked too many years for the the government not to know that no agency is above criticism.
But if by "trumpets" you mean Amtrak issues news releases about its successes, well every organization, private and public does that. In fact I think we should expect Amtrak to make an aggressive effort to recruit customers. Certainly, bus companies, airlines and every other kind of transportation does. If Amtrak didn't do the same it would be open to the criticism that management just wants to sit back, do nothing and let the government subsidies roll in.
At the same time Amtrak does publish a lot of information that is just a few clicks away on the internet. Even you have commented about that. And you don't need to make a FOIA request to get it. Beyond that, a lot of information which is closely guarded and not released in the private sector is routinely released by government agencies. So I think Amtrak does does disclose the information you call for.
When it comes to subsidy for rail transportation the anti subsidy movement has existed since the 1870's. Sometimes it has been stronger and sometimes weaker. Right now I think it is relatively strong. But the real issue is should we subsidize rail transportation. If we do we will keep it; if we don't we will loose all or almost all of it. The question has no really objective answer; it depends on the kind of society we wish to be and that is a value judgement. At least that is the way I see it.
John
blue streak 1Retirement states such as Folorida , Arizona may also have a large number of non driving licensed drivers??
You make a very good point, Streak. I would add a couple of things.
First of all, while many people who have a license drive that do not all drive an identical number of miles each year. Seniors often cut down on their milage drastically simply because they no longer have to drive to work.
Second, my state, New Jersey, has no Draconian voter id laws. But a lot of other areas do. To get into any government building for any reason except the post office and public library I have to show a picture ID. To buy an Amtrak ticket at the ticket window I need that picture ID and of course to take a plane anywhere I need it. When I go to a new doctor I need it. To open a bank account or apply for a credit card I need it. The list goes on and on and it is getting longer, not shorter. My uncle, God bless him, died a few years ago at 106. At age 100 he sold his home and moved into an old people's home and never again drove but the home told him to be sure to hold on to that license because as they applied for various government programs they needed to prove he was in the US legally. That's just the way it is in American today.
John WR I don't want to be defensive about Amtrak or Joe Boardman, Sam. I worked too many years for the the government not to know that no agency is above criticism. But if by "trumpets" you mean Amtrak issues news releases about its successes, well every organization, private and public does that. In fact I think we should expect Amtrak to make an aggressive effort to recruit customers. Certainly, bus companies, airlines and every other kind of transportation does. If Amtrak didn't do the same it would be open to the criticism that management just wants to sit back, do nothing and let the government subsidies roll in. At the same time Amtrak does publish a lot of information that is just a few clicks away on the internet. Even you have commented about that. And you don't need to make a FOIA request to get it. Beyond that, a lot of information which is closely guarded and not released in the private sector is routinely released by government agencies. So I think Amtrak does does disclose the information you call for. When it comes to subsidy for rail transportation the anti subsidy movement has existed since the 1870's. Sometimes it has been stronger and sometimes weaker. Right now I think it is relatively strong. But the real issue is should we subsidize rail transportation. If we do we will keep it; if we don't we will loose all or almost all of it. The question has no really objective answer; it depends on the kind of society we wish to be and that is a value judgement. At least that is the way I see it. John
I disagree. People or organizations who report numbers should present the whole picture, i.e. ridership, revenues, costs, etc. I read the financial press every day. This is how financial data is presented; it is not just half of the equation.
"By statute, access fees that Amtrak pays to operate over the freight railroads’ tracks are only required to cover the “incremental” costs associated with Amtrak’s operations — that is, the additional costs that arise solely because of Amtrak’s presence. Amtrak is not required to contribute to the freight railroads’ fixed costs or to the shared costs for which Amtrak operations have a responsibility. Consequently, Amtrak’s “track rental fee” is low and is, for all intents and purposes, an indirect subsidy paid by freight railroads to Amtrak. This means that the current structure by which Amtrak “rents” freight tracks should not necessarily serve as a guidepost for the future."
This little tidbit was included in the testimony of Edward R. Hamberger, President and CEO of the Association of American Railroads, to the U.S. Congressional Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure on June 27, 2013.
I have not seen any reference to below market rents in any of Amtrak's public reports for the space that it occupies on the freight railroads that hoist its trains.
Public corporations (businesses) should disclose fully the terms and conditions of their interactions with all their customers. Amtrak should not get a pass because it is a quasi-government agency.
And that is the way Amtrak does report financial data, Sam. However, neither Amtrak nor any other organization reports every bit of financial data in every single item they publish. Alines, for example, often publish advertisements that show numbers--their fares--but give no further financial data.
John WR And that is the way Amtrak does report financial data, Sam. However, neither Amtrak nor any other organization reports every bit of financial data in every single item they publish. Alines, for example, often publish advertisements that show numbers--their fares--but give no further financial data. John
Where in its financial reports does Amtrak acknowledge that it pays less than full cost rents to the freight railroads that hoist its trains?
What does airline reporting have to do with Amtrak's reporting?
The argument that the other guy is not reporting transparently and, therefore, I am justified in not doing so is predicated on the premise that if the other guy is not doing it it is okay for me to follow suite. Hardly what I would call robust logic or strong ethics.
Many organizations, including my former employer, do report this kind of data, although frequently one has to look at the 10Qs, 8Qs and other source documents for it. It is available to the public if they want it and know how to find it. In Amtrak's case, since it is a quasi-government agency, it does not have to file any of the SEC documents required of investor owner organizations. If it were not for Hamberger's testimony, I would not have known how to confirm this long suspected fact, other than to file a FOIA request.
So let's keep it within the realm of railways, so there is no complaint about others questionable practices used to justify one's own. What about the freight railroads' rent to use Amtrak-owned NEC? Do they pay a contribution to fixed costs in proportion to the wear and tear their much heavier trains exert? Does anybody actually know the answer?
schlimm So let's keep it within the realm of railways, so there is no complaint about others questionable practices used to justify one's own. What about the freight railroads' rent to use Amtrak-owned NEC? Do they pay a contribution to fixed costs in proportion to the wear and tear their much heavier trains exert? Does anybody actually know the answer?
That's an excellent question!
In FY 12 Amtrak earned $52.6 million from freight carriers using its rights-of-way, most of which are in the NEC. This was up from $42.8 million in FY11 or an increase of 22.9 per cent. It also earned $147.1 million from the commuter railroads that accessed its rights-of-way, which was up from $138.0 million in FY11. This was a 6.6 per cent increase.
Whether the rents for foreign carriers accessing Amtrak's rights-of-way reflect the full cost of the access is unknown. And it is probably unknown to Amtrak.
Amtrak is in the process of implementing SAP. It is an enterprise wide financial management system that includes a variety of financial as well as other management modules. Amongst other things it contains a robust cost accounting module.
The FRA OIG issued an audit report on Amtrak's progress in implementing SAP. I read over it lightly; I am reading it again for understanding. In a nutshell the audit report is not pretty. It leads me to believe that Amtrak does not know how much it should charge the foreign carriers using its rights-of-way because it does not know the fully allocated costs of them. If it does not know, it is likely no one else knows.
Frankly, Sam, we are not only reading from the same page here; looking at your recent posts I think we are not even reading from the same book. I do admire your ability with statistics. Even more, I admire your energy and hard work in bringing to us material that we would not have otherwise. However, some of your recent comments suggest to me that you present subsidy as a two sided coin. When Amtrak needs subsidy you oppose it as an inappropriate use of taxpayer funds. That approach is rational and understandable to me even though I tend to disagree with. But as Amtrak's needs for subsidy diminishes you increase your opposition. That is more difficult to understand; it seems rooted in some kind of deeply felt opposition to..... well, I'm not sure. I really don't understand it.
On the positive side, you are unfailingly civil and I appreciate that. So while I have said all I can on this subject I am hopeful we can continue to communicate.
Sam1 In a nutshell the audit report is not pretty. It leads me to believe that Amtrak does not know how much it should charge the foreign carriers using its rights-of-way because it does not know the fully allocated costs of them. If it does not know, it is likely no one else knows.
Or perhaps they really don't want to know? One would hope in the future Amtrak would hire some accounting/info systems folks who produce reports revealing this info, rather than only producing what is requested or that the SAP system allows easy access to some bright managers.
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