Extending LIRR to Riverdale for interchange with MN there would not add to congestion at Penn, because trains now revesing at Carpenter Yard or in the station itself would run to Riverdale instead and reverse there. LIRR commuters now needing to transfer to the 1, 2, 3, A, or C subway trains would enjoy a one-seat ride to stations a very short walk from Lincoln Center and the Columbia University-Unnion Theolical-Jewish Theological-Interchurch Center, Riverside Church educational complex, possibly with a net reduction in congestion. There would certainly be less congestion than adding Metro North trains to the mix. Eventually, in my dreams, I would see a station under the GWB, A-train service over the bridge replacing the buses with the Wash. Hts bus station relocated to Fort Lee with transfer to subway there, and a station on the bridge with elevators to the Amtrak-LIRR (or MN if you insist) station below. Now politically impossible, but who knows but some day we might have a three-state authority runing all mass transportaton in the area. (C trains would take over the run to 207th, and there would be a good balance of traffic.)
Through MN-NJT service is a different matter. But to simplify operations, I would make the crew-change at New Rochelle, not Penn, so that the number of players at Penn is kept to three. Amtrak is responsible for dispatching on the Hell Gate Bridge route anyway.
MidlandMikeThere was NYC style 3rd rail the length of the West Side Freight Line
timz MidlandMikeThere was NYC style 3rd rail the length of the West Side Freight LineThe Shaughnessy pic shows third rail on the High Line at 30th St-- did it really go all the way to Houston? But it wasn't there when the elevated line opened?
Originally I was trying to answer another poster's question and say that the route used for today's ATK Empire connection was electrified in NYC days. However, after I sent the post, I saw that I should have been more explicit. The NYC 3rd rail only went as far South as 23rd St. South of there they use tri-power locos (diesel-electric/straight electric/battery)
blue streak 1 rcdrye: This information of 12.5 Kv 60 Hz Helll Gate has been soomething I have not been able to find documentation. So from east of Gate crossover -- New Rochelle is now 12.5 Kv 60 Hz ? Was that part of the CAT up grade on that section ? Is Sunnyside Jct now 60 Hz? . Do you know where the freq break is located ? . Are you saying that a new 60 Hz substation is needed for west of gate ? Would that also include +-Sunnyside yard ? a definite big power consumer ?
Sunnyside is still AFAIK 25 hz. There is a break and voltage/frequency change with a dead catenary section somewhere between CP216 (New Rochelle) and Gate - I think it's closer to CP216 but it's listed in the ETT I have by cat pole number, not by MP (I'll look up the cat pole numbers if you really want them - the gap is about 4 poles or roughly 1000 ft. using old NH spacing). There's no particular requirement to change the overhead type to change frequency. That would make Sunnyside Jct and yard still 25 Hz.
I'm not sure if the 60Hz section is fed from MNRR. There used to be some substation equipment near the Pelham bridge.
The flood that affected the Portal substation after Sandy suggests that Portal is part of the power equation for Penn and Sunnyside. At one point there was a plan to change the 25Hz east of Newark to 60 Hz but that does not seem to have happened.
henry6 The easiest, most simple, most apparent implementing of such service would be SEPTA from inner city Philadelphia to Trenton, NJT to NYP, MNRR to New Haven. What an easy trial!...one or two trainsets which are already route compatible could be run to to test the equipment and usage. Second a one trainset schedule all the way. Three different crews are acceptable for the trial. Trains should make more stops than present Amtrakers but fewer stops than current SEPTA-NJT-MNRR (forget for the moment MNRR is not running from NYP). From Market St or Suburban to 30th St.,, North Philadelphia, another stop or two, Trenton; change crews; Hamilton, Princeton, New Brunswick, Metro Pk, Newark Airport, Newark, Sec. Jct (maybe), NYP; change crews; New Rochelle, Stamford, junction stations for Danbury and Waterbury anyway and maybe one or two others if needed, arrive New Haven. Probably about 4 hours each way, one set of equipment. One, two or three, round trips a day for testing...7AM from each end, 11AM, and 5PM for instance but change and alter if not working....either start earlier or later at either or both ends....no more than 2 minutes dwell at any station except maybe 5 at NYP. Don't look for Philadelphia to New Haven ridership but look at all the combinations in between! as well as off line passengers...Waterbury, Danbury, New Canaan, Wassaic, Poughkeepsie, Spring Valley, Port Jervis, Dover-Hackettstown-Gladstone, Raritan HIgh Bridge, any and all LIRR points using one thorugh line ticket. (easier today since I think everyone is using a zone fare system rather than a mileage system which can be fed into computer systems, i.e. NJT Z6 to SEPTA Z1 or MNRR Z 3 or LIRR Z 5, etc.). But start with equipment useage then move on to through scheduling and tickets....then.....
The easiest, most simple, most apparent implementing of such service would be SEPTA from inner city Philadelphia to Trenton, NJT to NYP, MNRR to New Haven. What an easy trial!...one or two trainsets which are already route compatible could be run to to test the equipment and usage. Second a one trainset schedule all the way. Three different crews are acceptable for the trial. Trains should make more stops than present Amtrakers but fewer stops than current SEPTA-NJT-MNRR (forget for the moment MNRR is not running from NYP). From Market St or Suburban to 30th St.,, North Philadelphia, another stop or two, Trenton; change crews; Hamilton, Princeton, New Brunswick, Metro Pk, Newark Airport, Newark, Sec. Jct (maybe), NYP; change crews; New Rochelle, Stamford, junction stations for Danbury and Waterbury anyway and maybe one or two others if needed, arrive New Haven. Probably about 4 hours each way, one set of equipment. One, two or three, round trips a day for testing...7AM from each end, 11AM, and 5PM for instance but change and alter if not working....either start earlier or later at either or both ends....no more than 2 minutes dwell at any station except maybe 5 at NYP. Don't look for Philadelphia to New Haven ridership but look at all the combinations in between! as well as off line passengers...Waterbury, Danbury, New Canaan, Wassaic, Poughkeepsie, Spring Valley, Port Jervis, Dover-Hackettstown-Gladstone, Raritan HIgh Bridge, any and all LIRR points using one thorugh line ticket. (easier today since I think everyone is using a zone fare system rather than a mileage system which can be fed into computer systems, i.e. NJT Z6 to SEPTA Z1 or MNRR Z 3 or LIRR Z 5, etc.). But start with equipment useage then move on to through scheduling and tickets....then.....
Why not expand the south endpoint to SEPTA's Delaware terminal,or maybe even jump the short gap to MARC and all the way to DC? And push the north endpoint along the existing commuter line to New London? I remember in another thread that people take NJT from NY to Trenton, then change to SEPTA for Phily. I don't mind if people are willing to change trains with dense commuter seating for a cheaper ride. However, I don't want to institutionalize subsidizing duplicate money-losing ATK service with even greater money-losing commuter service. I don't believe commuter districts should cross metro area boundaries, however, I do think that operations within a metro area should be integrated, such as NJT, MNRR & LIRR should all work toward NYP run-thru's.
The Voltage/Frequency break is between cat poles C-66 and C-70, near Gate interlocking. There is a power break in the 12.5KV/60Hz close to New Rochelle, where MNRR power begins. The 60Hz segment of the line must be powered from the substation near Pelham.
MidlandMike henry6 The easiest, most simple, most apparent implementing of such service would be SEPTA from inner city Philadelphia to Trenton, NJT to NYP, MNRR to New Haven. What an easy trial!...one or two trainsets which are already route compatible could be run to to test the equipment and usage. Second a one trainset schedule all the way. Three different crews are acceptable for the trial. Trains should make more stops than present Amtrakers but fewer stops than current SEPTA-NJT-MNRR (forget for the moment MNRR is not running from NYP). From Market St or Suburban to 30th St.,, North Philadelphia, another stop or two, Trenton; change crews; Hamilton, Princeton, New Brunswick, Metro Pk, Newark Airport, Newark, Sec. Jct (maybe), NYP; change crews; New Rochelle, Stamford, junction stations for Danbury and Waterbury anyway and maybe one or two others if needed, arrive New Haven. Probably about 4 hours each way, one set of equipment. One, two or three, round trips a day for testing...7AM from each end, 11AM, and 5PM for instance but change and alter if not working....either start earlier or later at either or both ends....no more than 2 minutes dwell at any station except maybe 5 at NYP. Don't look for Philadelphia to New Haven ridership but look at all the combinations in between! as well as off line passengers...Waterbury, Danbury, New Canaan, Wassaic, Poughkeepsie, Spring Valley, Port Jervis, Dover-Hackettstown-Gladstone, Raritan HIgh Bridge, any and all LIRR points using one thorugh line ticket. (easier today since I think everyone is using a zone fare system rather than a mileage system which can be fed into computer systems, i.e. NJT Z6 to SEPTA Z1 or MNRR Z 3 or LIRR Z 5, etc.). But start with equipment useage then move on to through scheduling and tickets....then..... Why not expand the south endpoint to SEPTA's Delaware terminal,or maybe even jump the short gap to MARC and all the way to DC? And push the north endpoint along the existing commuter line to New London? I remember in another thread that people take NJT from NY to Trenton, then change to SEPTA for Phily. I don't mind if people are willing to change trains with dense commuter seating for a cheaper ride. However, I don't want to institutionalize subsidizing duplicate money-losing ATK service with even greater money-losing commuter service. I don't believe commuter districts should cross metro area boundaries, however, I do think that operations within a metro area should be integrated, such as NJT, MNRR & LIRR should all work toward NYP run-thru's.
South of Philly...maybe. Inner City Philadelphia would be a good judgement call for the start of service, then extending it to wherever there might be a market. Defining the region would be the key factor. Could the market really provide hourly local service all the way from New Haven to D.C. with specific, not intercity, local stops? Right now I am inclined to define "region" as New Haven and Poughkeepsie, Port Jervis, maybe Scranton (if service gets started), Allentown-Bethlehem (again service needed to be installed), and maybe Harrisburg. South of Philadelphia to say Richmond or Norfolk and west into Maryland and Virginia could be another effective region. Same east of New Haven to Boston and into Maine. But there is much study and marketing to be done before lines are drawn and equipment ordered. My, for lack of a better name, NYPHLNE region has got about 80% of its plant and services in place and the other 20% on the drawing boards or being talked about; it would be the easiest and quickest to put in service if it were to be tried. NJT and MNRR have locomotives which can do the interline work and SEPTA has the MU's. If anyone was serious about it, it could be implemented or tried with little effort and planning. Remember, Amtrak is an intercity service...trains between major cities and not local and regional station hopping. A regional service could eliminate some of the Amtrak service existing allowing Amtrak to concentrate on its intercity services while the regional would take care of the local stations. I.E. Amtrak New Haven-Stamford-NYP-Newark-Airport-Metro Park-Trenton-Philadelphia; Regional: New Haven-Bridgeport-Stamford-NYP-Sec. Jct-Newark, airport- Metro Park-New Brunswick-Princeton Jct.-Trenton-No. Philadelphia-Philadelphia: MNRR: all stops NH to GCT, NJT all stops NYP to Trenton, SEPTA all stops Trenton to Philadelphia. Study, market, provide service with integrity.
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henry6The easiest, most simple, most apparent implementing of such service would be SEPTA from inner city Philadelphia to Trenton, NJT to NYP, MNRR to New Haven.
Henry,
It seems to me you propose to blur the distinction between commuter service and Northeast Regional service to provide low cost commuter style service between Philadelphia and New Haven.
Certainly it can be done. In fact Amtrak does it but with a higher fare. The real issue is a policy decision: Do our commuter railroads want to get into this kind of service?
It seems to me that right now they don't. For example, if you want to travel from New York to Philadelphia on commuter trains you have to change trains at Trenton. It is an easy change on the same platform but it is still a change. If SEPTA and NJT had any interest in doing more than they are now doing surely they would be providing a one seat commuter ride from New York Penn Station to 30th Street Station. But they are not.
Is there any reason they might change their current policy? And might Amtrak be opposed to the new service?
John
I don't mean to blur the distinction between Amtrak and Commuter lines I meant to erase it with a workable operation. Some of it has to do with the passenger, some has to do with equipment usage, some has to do with marketing, all has to do with service.
As far as equipment goes all three commuter railroads use the same overhead catenaries Amtrak now use. There is a short distance that they would have to be adapted to but that could be done.
But the real issue I would raise is passengers, I just don't see may people from Connecticut commuting to work in New Jersey or vice versa. Is there any reason to believe there would be such people?
PS. I just checked Megabus. You can ride from New Haven to New York and New Brunswick to New York. But you cannot get a Megabus from any place north of New York to any place south of New York as far as I can figure out.
Through riders would not be those now using Amtrak, but those using low-cost buses. Amtrak can compete with higher fares because of more comfortable less-dense seating, snack and drink service, and faster running time. In addition to pulling in some bus passengers, it may also pull some drivers off the roqd, who now find it inconvenient to do anything but drive, say from Kinstorn or Westerly to Towson or New Brunswick.
As I said, the riders are only part of the equation...new riders, are part of it, yes...but so is utilization of equipment, marketing, providing a service that is usable and will be used, finding prices that will sell, doing it with integrity and consistency. It is nothing that exists in this country now, it is part reinventing the wheel that exists, part renovating the property, part thinking outside the box then coming in and rearranging the furniture.
But why not just ride Amtrak from Kingston or Westerly to New Brunswick. Does Amtrak stop in Towson, MD?
The whole operating model, marketing model, concept of travel within the region, has to be redone to meet the needs of the population. A traffic study will be a start followed by an equipment utilization study...what we know today has to be scrapped and something new invented or built up from..
henry6 ... Remember, Amtrak is an intercity service...trains between major cities and not local and regional station hopping. A regional service could eliminate some of the Amtrak service existing allowing Amtrak to concentrate on its intercity services while the regional would take care of the local stations. I.E. Amtrak New Haven-Stamford-NYP-Newark-Airport-Metro Park-Trenton-Philadelphia; Regional: New Haven-Bridgeport-Stamford-NYP-Sec. Jct-Newark, airport- Metro Park-New Brunswick-Princeton Jct.-Trenton-No. Philadelphia-Philadelphia: MNRR: all stops NH to GCT, NJT all stops NYP to Trenton, SEPTA all stops Trenton to Philadelphia. Study, market, provide service with integrity.
... Remember, Amtrak is an intercity service...trains between major cities and not local and regional station hopping. A regional service could eliminate some of the Amtrak service existing allowing Amtrak to concentrate on its intercity services while the regional would take care of the local stations. I.E. Amtrak New Haven-Stamford-NYP-Newark-Airport-Metro Park-Trenton-Philadelphia; Regional: New Haven-Bridgeport-Stamford-NYP-Sec. Jct-Newark, airport- Metro Park-New Brunswick-Princeton Jct.-Trenton-No. Philadelphia-Philadelphia: MNRR: all stops NH to GCT, NJT all stops NYP to Trenton, SEPTA all stops Trenton to Philadelphia. Study, market, provide service with integrity.
You seem to have clarified your proposed service as a "regional service". To me this means something like the Keystone service between NY and Harrisburg. IIRC this is an ATK service with extra support from PA. But then in a later post you indicate you want to eliminate the distinction between Amtrak and commuter rail. Legal distinctions have evolved for political and funding reasons, and are not likely to be eliminated. Besides, with state supported regional services, you can work within the present framework.
People have been commuting from the Jersey suburbs into Manhattan for a good many years now. The same kind of people go there at about the same time for the same reasons as did a century ago. It would seem on the face of it that the needs are pretty much the same.
New Jersey Transit did make one very important change when it introduced the Secaucus transfer so you can now either take the DL&W lines into new York (perhaps with a change at Broad Street) or take the old Erie lines to Secaucus and change there. That is a real improvement and something the private railroads denied train riders for many many years.
Broader and deeper than a Keystone service. More like the San Diego service probably...broader because there are more routes and lines and people. It is a virtual single area where the transportation system has to be tamed, brought under control, rationalized, integrated but segregated at the same time. Each doing its own thing without coordinating, complimenting, supplementing, augmenting will lead to real problems in the future and if not addressed could stymie growth in the east.
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