Trains.com

Amtrak subsidy

1264 views
3 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2010
  • 23 posts
Amtrak subsidy
Posted by iron mountain on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 10:51 AM

First, I will say that I am impressed by the apparent level of expertise demonstrated by many of the contributors to this website. The knowledge of accounting, economics, history, and railroading is great.

So I would consider myself a layman in the sense that I don't have the knowledge background of many of the contributors. But I nave noticed in some instances that the layman posseses a perception that the experts do not always have.

I have spent a number of years reading how to break down subsidy costs  that Amtrak and other modes of transportation  are figured and the subsequent debates about the cost. I think that this cost analysis depends on who is doing the figuring. I am not saying it is inaccurate just that it depends how you look at it.  Whose ox is getting gored.

I have read about subsidies to other industries looking for analgous examples in relation to Amtrak, such as  airlines, highways, autos, pro sports stadiums, utilites, and so on. It seems to me that generally people are willing to pay for what they want to have. One example is pro sports stadiums. I have never read an article that could justify the expense of building one. The owners are billionaires who have enough inluence in the government to get  taxpayers to ante up for something that simply does not pay (except to the owners) and is not needed. I think that is especially true for pro football. But people seem to be willing to pay for that. And it is not even a majority of the population that desires such. There are other examples of entities that are subsidized, some more needed that others, such as water treatment, public schools, transportation, rural electrification, and so on. There are TIFS for industry expansion and development shopping malls.  My point is that  everything has some degree of private/government cooperation and dollar return to isn't always the main part.  And everyone contributing to what our government determines is for the common good is a well established principle. Public schools are one example. Some complain that they don't have kids in school so they should not  pay property tax. That argument has never been successful in court. 

The economics, technologies, and times change as the years pass and certainly influence our wants and needs. The flight to the suburbs was, in part, the  tangible and intagible desires for working people to have more status and luxury.  Everything about the land usage and energy consumption related to suburbia is more costly than the more urbanized lifestyle preceding it. We are willing to pay for what we want. Our wants our dictated by sociological and psychological issues along with hard economics.

I have been reading that due to the dwindling highway tax revenues due to more fuel efficent  vehicles something is going to have to give. More and more vehicles are not paying their "fair" share.  What  is the solution? More taxes, tolls, and fees (Washgington State wants to assess a fee of $100 on every electric or hybrid because they don't use enough gas to pay their way), or less driving. That translates into public transportation or increases in driving costs.  It is not an all or nothing proposition but adjustments will be made.  

I don't know if my figures are accurate but I figured that the Amtrak line item in the federal budget (which our government has illegaly avoided making) is a small fraction of 1% of the total budget. So I have to ask what is the big controversy about? There are  costs that could be trimmed and have a greater impact on spending reduction.

If enough folks like to travel on long distant trains so be it. Pay the frieght and let it go.  And as some of you have pointed out other nations seem to be able to come up with private/public  partnerships that are workable. The mere fact that Amtrak continues to soldier on inspite of the tremendous resistance, some irrational some rational, demonstates my point: We are willing to pay for what we want to have.

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:18 PM

Iron Mountain --

Although I tend to steer away from the discussions of subsidies and concentrate on operational items I have to think that you have blended this into a compact version.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 21,669 posts
Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:00 PM

iron mountain
I don't know if my figures are accurate but I figured that the Amtrak line item in the federal budget (which our government has illegaly avoided making) is a small fraction of 1% of the total budget. So I have to ask what is the big controversy about? There are  costs that could be trimmed and have a greater impact on spending reduction.

Correct.  The problem is that the Amtrak budget is low-hanging fruit for politicians who don't want cuts to entitlements or other set-asides they find more expedient.  Easy to get a rep for hardheaded protection of the American taxpayer, for slashing the evil Federal deficit... etc. 

On the flip side:  That IS a lot of money in absolute terms, and "could" be used for better unfunded social purposes.  But then, so could the waste and misappropriations in, say, the military budget, or punitive strict-scrutiny enforcement on people the Government doesn't like...

  • Member since
    August 2012
  • 3,727 posts
Posted by John WR on Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:33 PM

iron mountain
So I would consider myself a layman in the sense that I don't have the knowledge background of many of the contributors. But I nave noticed in some instances that the layman posseses a perception that the experts do not always have.

Not only that but in a democratic society such as ours all decisions must ultimately meet with the approval of layman or we will change those decisions.  For example, the Viet Nam War ended when laymen refused to approve of it.  

All of the thinks you mention go on because laymen ultimately approve of them.  And when the experts disagree with the laymen it is the laymen who prevail.  

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy