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AMTRAK decides not to order additional ACELA cars

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AMTRAK decides not to order additional ACELA cars
Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 5:26 PM

The inspector general of AMTRAK (OIG) issued a report stating that the costs for the additional 40 ACELA cars were excessive. It was recommened that AMTRAK negoitiate for lower prices but the OIG report states AMTRAK has decided not to pursue additional ACELA-1 cars.

http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/final_12-4____report_summary_acela_purchase.pdf

although I would like to see longer ACELAs pursuing new ACELA-2s might be a much better optionl  several options can occurr from this development.

1. Order a new generation of ACELA approximately 40 sets ( originally 24 ? were to be ordered but )with maybe even more cars maybe 10 - 12 (?)/.

2. convert ACELA-1s to longer trains

3. use -1s for Harrisburg and Springfield ? service.

4. one has to wonder if the 165 MPH tests had something to do with this decision ?

5. does anyone know if construction is continuing on the longer ACELA servicing  buildings ?

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:39 PM

Streak,  

I'm surprised at this.  Based on what I've read I thought the new Acela cars were a done deal.  They are certainly needed.  But the report is the report at best they will now be delayed.  

John

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:03 PM

blue streak 1

The inspector general of AMTRAK (OIG) issued a report stating that the costs for the additional 40 ACELA cars were excessive. It was recommened that AMTRAK negoitiate for lower prices but the OIG report states AMTRAK has decided not to pursue additional ACELA-1 cars.

http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/final_12-4____report_summary_acela_purchase.pdf

although I would like to see longer ACELAs pursuing new ACELA-2s might be a much better optionl  several options can occurr from this development.

1. Order a new generation of ACELA approximately 40 sets ( originally 24 ? were to be ordered but )with maybe even more cars maybe 10 - 12 (?)/.

2. convert ACELA-1s to longer trains

3. use -1s for Harrisburg and Springfield ? service.

4. one has to wonder if the 165 MPH tests had something to do with this decision ?

5. does anyone know if construction is continuing on the longer ACELA servicing  buildings ?

I like option #2.  Drop a loco from each set and couple them back to back.  Could still use existing service facility.  

Use them for "middle class" NY-DC trains.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:59 PM

It may be that the 165 MPH test had some unexpected results.

What i would like to see is another HSR competition from the various builders of HSR equipment.  Put the various builders  ( how many 5 or less  ?  ) equipment to a test on the NEC.  That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, December 6, 2012 9:32 AM

blue streak 1
That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

True.  One question remains, however.  can we build RoW similar to that of europe or japan?

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, December 6, 2012 1:32 PM

schlimm

blue streak 1
That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

True.  One question remains, however.  can we build RoW similar to that of europe or japan?

No matter if we can or cannot - the RoW we have is what they would run on here, and the one on which testing must be judged.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:23 PM

blue streak 1

It may be that the 165 MPH test had some unexpected results.

What i would like to see is another HSR competition from the various builders of HSR equipment.  Put the various builders  ( how many 5 or less  ?  ) equipment to a test on the NEC.  That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

Ooooooohhhhhhh nooooooooooo!

Seriously, what is out there that 1) would meet the FRA crush force standards and 2) offers some manner of improvement?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:25 PM

BaltACD

schlimm

blue streak 1
That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

True.  One question remains, however.  can we build RoW similar to that of europe or japan?

No matter if we can or cannot - the RoW we have is what they would run on here, and the one on which testing must be judged.

It is not the right-of-way as such -- it is the FRA standards.

The other thing, why the big push for 165 MPH, apart from bragging rights, when there are so many speed restrictions owing to station egress, tunnels, etc?  You will never get much return for running at 165 if you are slowed down in so many other places.

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, December 6, 2012 8:20 PM

Paul Milenkovic

blue streak 1

It may be that the 165 MPH test had some unexpected results.

What i would like to see is another HSR competition from the various builders of HSR equipment.  Put the various builders  ( how many 5 or less  ?  ) equipment to a test on the NEC.  That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

Ooooooohhhhhhh nooooooooooo!

Seriously, what is out there that 1) would meet the FRA crush force standards and 2) offers some manner of improvement?

That is one reason for a proposed test.  can the builders take an off the shelf train set and adapt it for AMTRAK running.  I am sure that a repeat of the early metroliner tests with FRA exemptions can be arranged. 

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Posted by erikem on Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:26 PM

Paul Milenkovic

The other thing, why the big push for 165 MPH,

If the Calif HSR Authority has any sense, getting some experience with 165 MPH running would be good practice for the planned (fantasized?) 220 MPH running.

- Erik

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, December 7, 2012 2:21 AM

Paul Milenkovic

t is not the right-of-way as such -- it is the FRA standards.

The other thing, why the big push for 165 MPH, apart from bragging rights, when there are so many speed restrictions owing to station egress, tunnels, etc?  You will never get much return for running at 165 if you are slowed down in so many other places.

Amtrak is following a plan to fix the track and to my surprise the Feds are taking it seriously for once.    they outlined the plan in a nice document available somewhere on the Amtrak website.    They are going to largely chuck the Boston-New York coastal aliignment,for one further inland to support 220 mph speeds.      South of New York the slowing for stations is not much of an issue with a inner track, IMO as you can skip past some stations for express service.     There is no rule that says trains HAVE to stop at city stations befween New York and Washington DC for example.     Amtrak can bypass or build a HSR bypass around those terminals.      The Germans have done it, no reason why we cannot.     It's only a question of money and how much the Feds are willing to spend.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, December 7, 2012 2:24 AM

Also in my view 220 mph running on the East Coast is a mobility = Economics issue more than it is a bragging rights issue.    Traveling at less than half that speed has a impact on GDP along the entire corridor.    The faster  and more efficient you can move people the more mobile they will be and the more economic activity they will generate.     Thats really how our government should view infrastructure investments.    We should take the approach, does the money spent on the project have a GDP increase or ROI return that will cover the capital costs over a respectable timeline.  

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 7, 2012 11:55 AM

blue streak 1

Paul Milenkovic

blue streak 1

It may be that the 165 MPH test had some unexpected results.

What i would like to see is another HSR competition from the various builders of HSR equipment.  Put the various builders  ( how many 5 or less  ?  ) equipment to a test on the NEC.  That way an even handed comparsion can be made under NEC operating conditions not european japan or china conditions.  The test probably would be best done once the constant tension CAT is installed  over the section used for the 165 MPH test  ?

Ooooooohhhhhhh nooooooooooo!

Seriously, what is out there that 1) would meet the FRA crush force standards and 2) offers some manner of improvement?

That is one reason for a proposed test.  can the builders take an off the shelf train set and adapt it for AMTRAK running.  I am sure that a repeat of the early metroliner tests with FRA exemptions can be arranged. 

That's how we go Acela.  Amtrak borrowed off the shelf X2000 and ICE trainsets and got waiver.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 7, 2012 11:58 AM

Paul Milenkovic
The other thing, why the big push for 165 MPH, apart from bragging rights, when there are so many speed restrictions owing to station egress, tunnels, etc?  You will never get much return for running at 165 if you are slowed down in so many other places.

I would guess that going from 125/135 to 165 might make a difference.  There are some really decent stretches where you could run off measurable minutes - if the trainset wasn't too much of a pig.

You might find cheaper minutes in curve easing, though.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 7, 2012 12:03 PM

CMStPnP
There is no rule that says trains HAVE to stop at city stations befween New York and Washington DC for example.     Amtrak can bypass or build a HSR bypass around those terminals.      The Germans have done it, no reason why we cannot.

Wut?

Where?  The new high speed segments in Germany are all rural and use existing track to existing major terminals in every case.  There is no city the size of Philadelphia or even Baltimore that has been by-passed.

What we CAN'T do that they do is mix light weight, high speed trainsets on the same track with our commuter (and other) trains.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, December 7, 2012 1:58 PM

blue streak 1
OIG report states AMTRAK has decided not to pursue additional ACELA-1 cars.

All I can think of is that they blew their money on baggage cars...Devil

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by Southwest Chief on Friday, December 7, 2012 4:39 PM

oltmannd

All I can think of is that they blew their money on baggage cars...Devil

Maybe, but where are they.  The old heritage baggage cars are still running everywhere.

Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, CO
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Posted by Alan F on Friday, December 7, 2012 4:54 PM

oltmannd

I would guess that going from 125/135 to 165 might make a difference.  There are some really decent stretches where you could run off measurable minutes - if the trainset wasn't too much of a pig.

You might find cheaper minutes in curve easing, though.

Amtrak will not be running the Acelas at 165 mph in revenue service. The max speed in revenue service, if Amtrak gets approval from the FRA, will be 160 mph. The 165 mph and slightly faster speeds reached in the recent test runs were the overspeed tests. The 160 mph speed goal is stated multiple times in the Amtrak news releases and pr blurbs on the Acela.
 
The 150 mph segments in RI and MA might get approved for 160 mph speeds in a year or two, although the time savings of 150 vs 160 mph over 20 or 25 miles is pretty small. The upgrade of ~24 mile straightaway segment in NJ probably won't be completed until 2017, so it will be a while before we see 150 or 160 mph regular service runs in NJ.
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Posted by Alan F on Friday, December 7, 2012 5:00 PM

oltmannd

blue streak 1
OIG report states AMTRAK has decided not to pursue additional ACELA-1 cars.

All I can think of is that they blew their money on baggage cars...Devil

You mean the 55-60+ year old falling apart baggage cars? The 130 single level cars ordered from CAF are badly needed to keep the eastern :LD trains running. And the new baggage cars are needed on the western LD trains and corridor trains in the east.

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