Last Thursday I rode the Cascades service from Seattle to Portland and return. It was a pleasant experience. It is a good example of where passenger trains make sense.
I used my Guest Rewards points to book business class for both legs of the trip. Redeeming the rewards was easy. Also, I was able to print my tickets at home, and the conductor was able to scan them when I got to King Street Station as well as Union Station in Portland.
The cost of a coach ticket from Seattle to Portland is $32 for tickets bought several weeks in advance. Business class is another $17. However, at least for now, business class passengers get a $3 coupon to use in the bistro car. The upgrade is worth the extra money. My breakfast items (coffee and yoghurt) were decidedly better than the food that I had on my last trip on the Texas Eagle. I was told by the car attendant that the food service is contracted out, although the bistro car attendant is an Amtrak employee.
King Street Station is being renovated. Accordingly, it is not an ideal place to wait for the train, especially if one did not have a wake-up cup of coffee before getting to the station. Union Station in Portland, on the other hand, is fully functional, with ample space to wait for the train. It has food service in the station. Moreover, adjacent to the station but in the same building is a first class restaurant. I did not eat lunch there; instead I opted to stroll a few blocks to a redeveloped warehouse district (lots of new apartments and seemingly trendy restaurants) where I had lunch.
Within easy walking distance of Union Station is the bus terminal where one can catch an intercity bus to a variety of points in the Northwest or further if needed. Also, there is a light rail stop within a block or so of the station that one can catch to get downtown or to many other locations in the Portland area. It appears that Portland has developed an integrated public transit system without a lot of top down direction from Washington and Salem.
The train departed King Street Station a few minutes late, but it arrived in Portland on time. And the return train was on time. The crew members were amongst the best that I have experienced on Amtrak. They were pleasant and helpful. The attendant in my car greeted some of the regulars on a first name basis. I did not see any of the negative attitudes that I have seen on some of the east coast and long distance trains. Even the attendant in the bistro car, who was trying to placate a line of caffeine needy passengers in the morning, was cheerful.
Amtrak's Cascades are painted green and brown. The car interiors are dominated by earth tones. The seats in business class, which are three across, i.e. two on one side of the car and a single on the other, are comfortable, and the coach seats appear to be equally comfortable. The windows are large and ideal for watching the scenery roll by, which is particularly pleasing as the train travels along Puget Sound. The Talgo equipment seems to ride a little rougher than so-called standard equipment, i.e. the vibration when changing tracks was more noticeable, but all in all the ride was very comfortable.
Passengers traveling on the Cascades, at least from Seattle and Portland, are required to check-in prior to train time to get a seat assignment. Business class passengers can check in at anytime during the day, I was told, to get a seat assignment, but coach passengers have to line up about 30 to 40 minutes before train time to get their assignment.
Here is another observation that I left out of my initial post. All the Cascades trains have a Talgo technician on-board. They are paid by Talgo, as I was told by the technician on the northbound train, and their job is to make sure that all of the equipment is performing correctly.
Having a technician on-board for every trip strikes me as a bit unusual. It doesn't appear to say much for the dependability of the equipment.
Is anyone aware of a similar practice in anywhere else?
Likely part of the equipment purchase. Perhaps also doesn't say much about the performance of the Amtrak service shop.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Likely part of the equipment purchase. Perhaps also doesn't say much about the performance of the Amtrak service shop.
The onboard Talgo tech person is a Talgo Company thing. It is part of their corporate strategy to make their completely unique design a success in the marketplace. With sufficiently exotic railroad equipment, what they are doing may be a necessity.
Do you suppose that EMD reps accompanying the first-generation Diesels out on the road is an analogy? I remember reading essays in Trains about the life and times of such factory reps. Dieselization has been a roaring success in hindsight, but the first-gen Diesels had their own share of teething problems, some intrinsic to the technology, some the result of the railroads learning the ropes in how to operate and maintain them effectively.
You probably know the story of the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulics in the U.S.. Talgo is not taking any chances that in the future some smart-mouthed train book author will brand the Talgo Train "a failure."
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Jim Boyd talked about his working as an EMD rep. in his book, Illinois Central: Monday Mornin' Rails.
Paul Milenkovic schlimm Likely part of the equipment purchase. Perhaps also doesn't say much about the performance of the Amtrak service shop. The onboard Talgo tech person is a Talgo Company thing. It is part of their corporate strategy to make their completely unique design a success in the marketplace. With sufficiently exotic railroad equipment, what they are doing may be a necessity. Do you suppose that EMD reps accompanying the first-generation Diesels out on the road is an analogy? I remember reading essays in Trains about the life and times of such factory reps. Dieselization has been a roaring success in hindsight, but the first-gen Diesels had their own share of teething problems, some intrinsic to the technology, some the result of the railroads learning the ropes in how to operate and maintain them effectively. You probably know the story of the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulics in the U.S.. Talgo is not taking any chances that in the future some smart-mouthed train book author will brand the Talgo Train "a failure."
I was told that the equipment was placed in service between 1994 and 1998. I understand it is being leased as opposed to being owned. I presume it is being leased by the Washington and Oregon DOTs. This seems like a long time to have a technician on every train.
The on-board Talgo technician is simply part of Talgo attempt to provide the best possible service. And it seems to be paying off -- I read somewhere that Talgo's Amtrak Cascades trainsets have an availability rate of something like 98 - 99%, much bewtter than most Amtrak equipment.
All of Talgo's trains, wherever in the world they are sold (whether in the US & Germany, or Kazakhstan & Bosnia), come with a Talgo maintenance agreement, or they don't sell the equipment.
I understand that this comes from a feeling that the "black eye" Talgo got from it's earliest US trains (in the late '40's and early '50's) was due to the inadequate maintenance provided by the cash-starved railroads that were desparately hoping that "something new" would help save them. So the Rock Island, the New Haven, and the Boston & Maine bought the trains (from ACF) and ran them into the ground, giving Talgo a bad rap. So, they do not want to make that mistake again.
Dragoman The on-board Talgo technician is simply part of Talgo attempt to provide the best possible service. And it seems to be paying off -- I read somewhere that Talgo's Amtrak Cascades trainsets have an availability rate of something like 98 - 99%, much bewtter than most Amtrak equipment. All of Talgo's trains, wherever in the world they are sold (whether in the US & Germany, or Kazakhstan & Bosnia), come with a Talgo maintenance agreement, or they don't sell the equipment. I understand that this comes from a feeling that the "black eye" Talgo got from it's earliest US trains (in the late '40's and early '50's) was due to the inadequate maintenance provided by the cash-starved railroads that were desparately hoping that "something new" would help save them. So the Rock Island, the New Haven, and the Boston & Maine bought the trains (from ACF) and ran them into the ground, giving Talgo a bad rap. So, they do not want to make that mistake again.
On the other hand, sam1 has remarked that this onboard maintenance service has been going on for the better part of 15 years.
The thing is, Talgo is "on the outside looking in", marketing what is admittedly exotic equipment by railroad standards. Think of the time it took GE to gain the dominant market share over EMD, for much of this time GE had the reputation of making an inferior product maintenance and longevity wise, and with GE catching up when the put factory reps, not in the cab but in railroad maintenance bays to show the railroad crews the ropes regarding keeping a GE locomotive healthy. Maybe it wasn't that GE's were worse than EMD's, just different.
As to having an onboard tech, what does a Talgo trainset cost, north of 25 million dollars? And what is amortization and interest charge on that capital expenditure, at least 1 million/year? And what is the salary and fringe and supervision expense for the tech person -- maybe one tenth that or about 100K/year? Do you need one tech per trainset or do you need two techs to cover every last departure? So the salary of the tech is not trivial, but it is not the largest factor in cost-of-ownership. An onboard person may be an expensive way to do routine maintenance checks, but that person is still contributing to maintenance rather than just joyriding.
On the other hand, the Talgo maintenance contract does not come cheaply, a figure of around 16 million dollars over 20 years per trainset sticks in my mind. This is derived from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel newspaper covering the Wisconsin Talgo embroglio. That total maintenance contract cost is thus a non-trivial component of total cost of ownership of Talgo equipment, and it is that maintenance contract that has been the sticking point in the Joint Finance Committee, where the fiscal-hawk Governor wanted the two paid-for Talgo trainsets in service whereas the ultra-fiscal-hawks on Joint Finance have been standing astride history shouting "No!"
All this may be mooted as a major buy of Pacific Surfliner-type bilevels is being discussed on another thread on this forum. This "going with" a group bi-level purchase involving California, Illinois, and Michigan, the states that are the most active in promoting corridors outside the NEC means that the dream of Washington and Wisconsin buying Talgos and other states hopping on the bandwagon is dead.
Since Talgo is maintaining the TALGOs anyway ----
1. The tech rep can keep train going in event of a reboot or repair can be done enroute. The cost of the tech cannot be considered a complete extra cost ----- because---
2. routine items such as changing light bulbs, fixing recline mechanisims, etc can be done enroute.
3. will enable techs to focus on more important equipment maintenance when at layover locations.
4. allow faster turns ---- very important
5. Improve timekeeping
as an aside if AMTRAK trains were made a decent length many of the above items could be accomplished by a traveling maintenance man. Same benefits ?
You got it! Two Sundays ago the EMD unit on No. 506 out of Portland quit just shy of the Columbia River bridge. The next northbound, No. 516, went around on its way to B.C. No. 506 arrived at Kelso-Longview 5:30 late behind No. 14. No wonder I quit driving Chevvies for Honda (you know, that "Jap-Can" made by UNION labor in Alabama, USof A)
The Talgo on board technitian is a standard feature in every country where this trains are on service (I think the only exception are the high speed trainsets in Spain).
As far as rough riding is concerned, Talgos seem not to 'like' jointed rail lines
Mario_v As far as rough riding is concerned, Talgos seem not to 'like' jointed rail lines
blue streak 1 Mario_v As far as rough riding is concerned, Talgos seem not to 'like' jointed rail lines ImHO that is correct. rode the same series in spain and the jointed rail was not plesant whereas the welded rode fairly well. also any switches and frogs also rode rough. suspect it is due to the one axel at each end of the car ??
I'll tell you what rides rough. A Regional Jet. OK, you don't spend the entire trip taxiing on the ground, but that jet's time on the ground is like a train threading the frogs and switchpoints in a major train terminal, and let me tell you, you feel every last crack in the cement.
The Talgo is like that Regional Jet -- a lightweight aluminum can. I have a theory that the acceleration forces in terms of bumps and jolts are not the problem, but that you hear every bump and jolt as a sharp rap instead of a muted thud. Do you suppose that a smoother ride would require a stiffer, heavier coach structure?
On the other hand, I had a chance to ride both the original Metroliner and the United Aircraft TurboTrain more years ago than I remember. I recall that the Metroliner rode like a truck but I thought the TurboTrain was smooth. Then again, I went for seats in the dome section (of course), which was located on top of a two-axle truck.
Strictly speaking, the Talgo doesn't have an axle at each end of the car as it has fewer axles than that. It has a shared axle between train cars. It is also regarded that a smooth ride in a railroad car requires some form of side motion or swing motion. The Pioneer III truck on an Amcoach doesn't really have swing hangers as it has a kind of floating bolster arrangement that allows side motion through sideways deformation of the main springs. The Talgo kinda sorta has a mix of those two things. One end of the car sits on a pair of air springs up high on these bed post-like structures that connect to the axle journals down below. That allows side motion against spring forces but it also allows a limited amount of pendulum tilt into curves. The other end of the car is connected to the shared axle through a trapeze-like linkage that the Talgo company calls the load bearer. This arrangement is described in scientific papers that engineers with the Talgo company have published in scholarly journals.
The United Aircraft TurboTrain didn't have any kind of side motion or swing motion apart from the pendulum tilt. The load-bearer connection between train cars on the Talgo, however, allows neighboring train cars to rotate or move sideways relative to each other, but that motion is heavily constrained by dampers (shock absorbers) between train cars.
The other thing about Talgo and TurboTrain is the matter of the guided single axles, akin to a "forced steer radial truck" with a car-length wheel base. That arrangement may suppress hunting and it may steer well on broad curves, but there may be considerable wheel slide and flange contact owing to steering error negotiating crossovers and reverse curves -- Jason Shron recounts in "Turbo Train: A Journey" how as a young person he thought it was kewl to stand in the rubber passageway between intermediate cars and be tossed around when negotiating crossovers -- the railroad advised passengers on "The Turbo" to stay in their seats in the terminal area.
One final thing is that the TurboTrain had cone tapered wheel treads and solid axle connections between wheels to provide self-steering in addition to the forced-steering of the axle guiding linkages. With Talgo - don't know what tread profile they us, -- they allow the wheels to turn independently, and no other train does this apart from some streetcars. They must however use a wheel profile to get some degree of "gravity steering", otherwise they would be shucking back on forth between the flanges.
The other thing is that any observations about the relative ride quality of the different trains is instructive, especially feedback beyond "It rode rough -- it's no good." Does it sway at speed or does it ride steadily? Do you feel mainly bumps negotiating switches and crossovers or are you jostled from side-to-side. Do you mainly hear the rough spots or are you bounced about? Is it difficult standing or walking when negotiating the rough spots?
The Talgo is, after all, an experimental type of train as that design is not widely adopted. That type of train has advantages in terms of the lighter weight offering better fuel economy. Is it possible to build a workable lightweight train, or does a comfortable ride require a heavier train that uses more fuel?
"Does it sway at speed or does it ride steadily? Do you feel mainly bumps negotiating switches and crossovers or are you jostled from side-to-side. Do you mainly hear the rough spots or are you bounced about? Is it difficult standing or walking when negotiating the rough spots?"
On my trip from Seattle to Portland and back, the ride was a little bit rough negotiating switches and crossovers, but not disturbingly so. There was no jostling from side to side through the switches and crossovers, and I did not have any difficulty walking whilst the train was changing tracks, etc. Overall the ride was smooth, with little if any side swaying, and it was easy to walk to the bistro car.
That's precisely what I feel everytime I ride Talgos in Spain. One must notice though, that some lines in spain are a little bit well maintained than in other countries, especially when passing thru sitches (It can be felt even in conventional trains). One notoriously bad section was the Valencaide Alcantara to Caceres line before renovation (used by the Lusitania Express up untill July) before modernisation. It looked like a ship in rough seas where
Great write-up on your trip! I too have taken this train, though from Everett to Portland and back. It is a very pleasant experience especially when traveling in the business class cars. I rode one-way in the "quiet car" and it was exceptionally quiet for what amounts to a glorified commuter train. There is also far less bumping and jostling than one would experience on NE corridor train. As noted, the business class check-in experience is absolutely superior to the coach class (very lengthy) lines in the King Street station.
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