Railway expert Wang Mengshu said that as new high-speed lines open, transportation capacity will be released from conventional lines, which will gradually turn into freight lines."Putting passenger and freight on separate tracks will greatly increase traffic volume," said Wang, also an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering. "The plan indicates that China will continue to develop high-speed trains to address its transportation bottleneck."
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90778/7966961.html
China is the country of the future. We should be learning more about it.
John WR China is the country of the future. We should be learning more about it.
Are you in the least bit serious about that remark?
China is the home or country of origin of about a billion good, earnest, and upstanding people, many of whom are my colleagues here in the U.S. But China, its history, traditions, culture, and the constraints they work under are different from those of the United States, to say the least.
For example, China effortlessly builds HSR lines whereas in the U.S. we are thrashing about trying to build even a single such line in California. The host of another Web site who harbors anti-HSR views was snarking about the California HSR running into a buzz saw of environmental and not-in-my-neighborhood opposition, wallowing in the irony of a project meant to help the environment by taking cars off the road being stymied by environmental-group opposition.
I asked someone on that forum who was more predisposed to projects helping the environment about this, suggesting that it was Ralph Nader's legacy that instead of just bulldozing building projects through, everyone through the courts now has a say in such things, and it seems that we could not get an environmentally good thing built.
His response was interesting, to the effect that much as he wanted to see the CA HSR built, he didn't want us "to become China" in pushing it through by ignoring people who had concerns, and admitted that this might mean HSR might be pushed back yet another generation here in the U.S.. He expressed the view that given the choice, he would rather preserve individual rights of redress of grievance in trade for the HSR.
China, for a host of reasons too deep to get into here, has more of a "command economy" than the kind of free-for-all that takes place in the U.S.. The authorities in China can build HSR if they want whereas we bicker about it in the U.S.. The authorities in China can mine and burn coal in the absence of smog controls, placing major cities in a coal-smoke haze. Here in the U.S., we are trying to shut down coal plants even though they are important to the economy. The authorities in China can put restrictions on the Internet that would create an uproar if tried here.
Are trains and especially HSR trains such a desirable social goal, do they have so much goodness and benefit to them, that you seriously want the U.S. to emulate China? Is HSR an end in itself? These questions beg answers if the modality of passenger train advocacy you represent is to be taken seriously by the broader voting public that has a stake in this.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicAre trains and especially HSR trains such a desirable social goal, do they have so much goodness and benefit to them, that you seriously want the U.S. to emulate China? Is HSR an end in itself? These questions beg answers if the modality of passenger train advocacy you represent is to be taken seriously by the broader voting public that has a stake in this.
Good questions. So what are your opinions or answers to them, especially if you modify the first to be less of a loaded question. So if your question were, "Are trains and especially HSR trains such a desirable social goal, do they have so much goodness and benefit to them, that you believe they should become a national priority?" Given your past posts about involvement with the advocacy community in Madison, is there any US passenger rail system future you are in favor of?I would also remind you and others, that in the era of railroad building, even the privately financed lines often benefited from being allowed to use the government's eminent domain power to acquire right of way. They also often benefited from being allowed to raise funds through bonds issued at the lower government rates.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically supported the passenger rail proposal that Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz, WisDOT Secretary Frank Busalacchi, and Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle supported. A plan for locating the Madison train station on East Wilson Street that the local advocacy community vociferously objected to.
I support the ongoing changes by the California HSR Authority, compromises on routing and performance to make that project more affordable and give it a higher chance of being implemented.
And no, I don't see China as a model to wholeheartedly embrace as a way of pushing through HSR. China is China and is that way for a whole lot of historical, cultural, geographic, demographic, and economic reasons, but just as the U.S. has many serious challenges to face, so does China have its own set of challenges. To say that China is 'the future" of the U.S. simply because they get HSR built is entirely too glib, and it is a position that will invite criticism of passenger train advocacy.
schlimm I would also remind you and others, that in the era of railroad building, even the privately financed lines often benefited from being allowed to use the government's eminent domain power to acquire right of way. They also often benefited from being allowed to raise funds through bonds issued at the lower government rates.
I would also remind you and others, that in the era of railroad building, even the privately financed lines often benefited from being allowed to use the government's eminent domain power to acquire right of way. They also often benefited from being allowed to raise funds through bonds issued at the lower government rates.
To put matters a little less diplomatically, China is undergoing a phase in economic development where the U.S. had been. More specifically, there is a lot to China that is like our "Robber Baron" era in U.S. history where great rail building and later road building took place, where the motto was famously "The Public be damned!"
To argue that China is The Future is kind of saying that the U.S. needs to "go back to the future" of our Robber Baron era. I think to say such a thing in the context of train advocacy makes us look silly outside our social group. It makes us look silly even to the fellow on that other forum, who would wholeheartedly support HSR, but doesn't think "we should become China" to get it.
Thanks, Paul, for your succinct responses. I agree that China is a very different situation. At least in some areas of the US, Europe holds more examples to learn from. In any case, I do not think HSR should necessarily be a universal goal, since some corridors do not require it to be successful. But higher speeds than the current ones outside the NEC and CHI-STL and Michigan are needed. Two other questions/notions occur to me and I wonder what you think.
1. Is there a need for separate track (not necessarily RoW) for passenger trains, especially if higher speed, between major end points, sharing track only in urban approaches?
2. For a variety of reasons, including but not limited to environmental, shouldn't electrified service be a must in these corridors?
What makes you think I want to emulate China? I don't but I think it would be a good idea to understand China's perspective.
Even if we did want to emulate China here in the U. S. we couldn't. Not only are there the differences you correctly cite, but also we have a much older industrial economy than China has. I don't see how we could reduce our standard of living to that of China.
However, high speed rail may not be as effortless for China as it may appear. Wang Mengshu points out it will be necessary to go to the capital markets and borrow money to build it. Whether or not lenders are willing to bankroll the new HSR remains to be seen.
I'm not sure where to draw the line between high speed rail and low speed rail. Conventional equipment is able to run a lot faster than we run it now. What holds it back is not technology but politics. I do believe that realistically if we are to have any passenger rail we must have a national rail network or the political support needed to have Amtrak just will not be there. But as far as building a new system of HSR tracks I think the idea has promise but I am not persuaded of it yet.
PS. If we are serious about HSR we should consider the route of the old Federal Express, trains 71 and 72 between Boston and Washington, before the Hell Gate Bridge was built. They bypassed Manhattan crossing the Hudson upriver and ran down through New Jersey along the Delaware River to Trenton. The trains were very popular. Since we are building a new line we could run it just west of the New Jersey Burbs and put a station for Manhattan where NJT's Morris and Essex line would cross it.
Paul, I don't think China is the country of the future simply because of high speed rail. China is already a large and successful economy with every sign of becoming more successful in the future. We should watch China and try to understand it. We should not do anything simply because it is being done in China.
John
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