Not wanting to blend in this proposal with the politically oriented discussion on the other topic, I post this separately.
From a technical standpoint, what would not work if food / beverage service on selected corridors was replaced by a subcontracted 'Automat' type operation?
- equip a car with one or two large 'Automat' type vending machines stocked with prepackaged, cooked food, drink, ice. Provide multiple microwave ovens for reheating food.
- frequently restock the machine at periodic time / station intervals. Stale food is Not acceptable.
- supplement a planned restocking schedule by remotely monitoring the stock in the machine. Think data transmission via satellite phone.
- be able to repair the machines or swap out microwave ovens at major cities
It almost goes without saying - this operation has to be subcontracted. Amtrak does not have the skill sets, motivation, agility or working capital to implement and run such an operation.
One technical issue comes to mind - would the machines have to be 'shock isolated'? Compared to the usual stationary installation, train cars can ride pretty rough.
Is this practical or am I dreaming?
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
We all agree that providing food service on a moving train is more expensive than a stand alone restaurant no matter what the menu in content or value. After that there is no agreement: Micky D's meat or Delmonico's steaks; on every train or only select trains and routes; paid for by the diner himself or subsidized directly or indirectly and used as a marketing or accomodating point for the train or the route or all trains. There is no short cutting the costs. So is there really an answer other than blasting Amtrak, pulling the political card, or being nostalgica about how the DR&GW presented fresh Rockey Mt. trout and the NP served baked Idaho potatos et al.?
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I actually see all of that as a system that would ultimately cost a lot, never actually work, and have all new problems.
Also, "doesn't have the skill set" is...silly at best. Its not like they're hiring a bunch of signal maintainers from CSX and saying "heat up sandwiches." Any skill issue is something that can be replaced with personnel changes. That's trivial.
No one knows for sure whether the idea would work. It strikes me as being worth a try. A competitive business would run the idea by targeted focus groups, make whatever changes appeared reasonable, and test it in several markets.
Too many people nick an idea without even giving it a go.
NittanyLion I actually see all of that as a system that would ultimately cost a lot, never actually work, and have all new problems. Also, "doesn't have the skill set" is...silly at best. Its not like they're hiring a bunch of signal maintainers from CSX and saying "heat up sandwiches." Any skill issue is something that can be replaced with personnel changes. That's trivial.
On the contrary, doesn't have the skill set is very real and very important. Try carrying a tray of food the length of a dining car doing 25 on rough track or 75 on good track; pour coffee, place the soup, don't bump into the table across the aisle. Try preparing food in a 5x5 space without putting the wrong thing in the wrong place. Working a dining car is not taking orders at McDonalds, Applebees, or the Waldorf.
Sam1 No one knows for sure whether the idea would work. It strikes me as being worth a try. A competitive business would run the idea by targeted focus groups, make whatever changes appeared reasonable, and test it in several markets. Too many people nick an idea without even giving it a go.
Apparently the idea of putting an automat on rails was tried and failed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
Growing up in the NY area we would occasionally eat at an automat, but they are now long gone.
henry6 NittanyLion I actually see all of that as a system that would ultimately cost a lot, never actually work, and have all new problems. Also, "doesn't have the skill set" is...silly at best. Its not like they're hiring a bunch of signal maintainers from CSX and saying "heat up sandwiches." Any skill issue is something that can be replaced with personnel changes. That's trivial. On the contrary, doesn't have the skill set is very real and very important. Try carrying a tray of food the length of a dining car doing 25 on rough track or 75 on good track; pour coffee, place the soup, don't bump into the table across the aisle. Try preparing food in a 5x5 space without putting the wrong thing in the wrong place. Working a dining car is not taking orders at McDonalds, Applebees, or the Waldorf.
I'm saying its silly to say that "Amtrak doesn't have the skill set" because the skill set can be acquired.
MidlandMike Apparently the idea of putting an automat on rails was tried and failed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
Also looks like basic engineering research was not done. At a previous employer over 30 years ago I observed commercial off the shelf, expensive, electronic test equipment mounted on simple wire rope coil shock absorbers for mobile military use and it worked fine.
@henry6 a.k.a. Mr. Grumpasaurus, my proposal isn't to eliminate dining car service on all routes. It could be a 24 / 7 available replacement for the 'Cafe Car' or whatever it's called. Only on overnight runs do I expect dining car service.
@NittanyLion, Amtrak's management is barely (BARELY) capable of operating their existing trains and occasionally purchasing new rolling stock, much less finding some new technology or service 'skill set'. The 'not invented here' mentality is pervasive!
IMO Amtrak would have to identify and fund (somehow) outside engineering & logistics management expertise to design and implement this kind of new service. Between Amtrak's inarticulate executives and constant Congressional interference, only a spinoff into a USPS like organization might make this happen. Er, that isn't working out too well either.
Nittany Lion, it is a skill that is not taught in a book or classroom, not putting sandwiches together in a Subway shop, not watching a video nor through an internet course...it takes time, willing time. But the teachers have to be seasoned veterans, too. to help guide the willing newbie. Not like a Mickey D post at all.
And MikeF90, I'm not sure how to interpret your assignation of me as Grandpasaurous. If you are mocking my experience and knowledge of the subject, then I resent it and you. If you are acknowledging that I have contributed something worthwhile, then I appreciate it. If it is the former, then it is time I left these pages; if it is the latter, then I will be glad to add my two cents from my experience and from my standpoint of age.
MikeF90, I'm sure they could spend the money to engineer a rail car with the most modern style automat on 8 wheels. However, why would we embrace a dining concept that the public has discarded decades ago. Even the airlines, which seem to have given up any pretense of coach class service, will still sell you a sandwich or snack pack.
Arer not you simply reviving the SP automat car? I experienced it on the Coast Daylight. Ceertainly better than nothing but not prefereble in any way to what I experienced through the winter of 95-96, which was the latest I ate in an Amtrak diner.
One diner does not fit all. How is the train marketed or patronized? Is is a long distance luxury train? a businessman's clientle? Older people? Much younger people? Income level is ___? Average time passenger is aboard train? Hours of operation? Does the car route have to serve full course meals? Lunch? Breakfast? Snacks or short order stuff? So, each train, each route, could be supporting a different dining need than another train or route or another train on the same route. It is very expensive to set up a single restaurant service that does not specialize in any one thing but be different in every dining room and every kitchen. So, again I say, there is no single answer that is going to satisfy any if not all of us here. But does that mean service shouldn't be provided? From an advertising/promotion/marketing person, I say, it should be provided dependent on the alternatives...ie.: stopping the train every couple of hours for up to an hour to feed everybody; what the competition is offering either in onboard services or wayside services or none; the route, passenger make up, and time of day and length of trip; it attracts more passengers than if it weren't available. And that's just a few reasons.
MidlandMike Sam1 No one knows for sure whether the idea would work. It strikes me as being worth a try. A competitive business would run the idea by targeted focus groups, make whatever changes appeared reasonable, and test it in several markets. Too many people nick an idea without even giving it a go. Apparently the idea of putting an automat on rails was tried and failed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat Growing up in the NY area we would occasionally eat at an automat, but they are now long gone.
It failed because that train (Lake Counties) had a nearly zero passenger count!
Automats were the precursors of fast food. The food was plated in the kitchen and then shoved into the vending slots.
A vending machine based food service has the food being prepared off-site and then loaded into vending machines for sale each day. They are all over the place in office cafes - typically with a few nearby microwaves to heat food.
Shock and vibration are really minimal on passenger cars. It's very likely commercial grade vending machines would hold up well.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6 One diner does not fit all. How is the train marketed or patronized? Is is a long distance luxury train? a businessman's clientle? Older people? Much younger people? Income level is ___? Average time passenger is aboard train? Hours of operation? Does the car route have to serve full course meals? Lunch? Breakfast? Snacks or short order stuff? So, each train, each route, could be supporting a different dining need than another train or route or another train on the same route. It is very expensive to set up a single restaurant service that does not specialize in any one thing but be different in every dining room and every kitchen. So, again I say, there is no single answer that is going to satisfy any if not all of us here. But does that mean service shouldn't be provided? From an advertising/promotion/marketing person, I say, it should be provided dependent on the alternatives...ie.: stopping the train every couple of hours for up to an hour to feed everybody; what the competition is offering either in onboard services or wayside services or none; the route, passenger make up, and time of day and length of trip; it attracts more passengers than if it weren't available. And that's just a few reasons.
This ain't rocket science. The passengers are captive. The large restaurant chains know the market backward and forward - Amtrak can provide them with all the demographic info on the passengers they could possibly need (I hope - they DO have a marketing department, right?).
Stopping the train to feed everyone had been a bad idea for more than a century. Losing buckets of money doing it the way it's done now is nearly as bad.
Stopping the train to load on a few carts of food prepared at the kitchen of a local chain restaurant - ready to eat - might be a good idea.
Amtrak Inspector General's office seems to be the only source of innovative ideas at Amtrak. C'mon Amtrak, wake up! You've slept too long!
One problem with a vending car of course it it needs to be powered 24 by 7. Place a vending car in the sun without power and watch the internal temp hit 120 degrees plus in some climates and your vending machine stock is ruined. Another problem would be managing the items in the machines between runs and maintaining freshness. It would probably require multiple contracts in multiple cities, IMO.
henry6I'm not sure how to interpret your assignation of me as Grandpasaurous.
Many of you have zoomed past the main point - IMO a properly provisioned vending machine could be cheaper and better that the intermittently staffed and provisioned 'Cafe Car'. Why do I need an 'attendant' to serve me a premade sandwich? The airlines do because they're isn't an alternative. @oltmannd paraphrased me perfectly: "This ain't rocket science." ... "C'mon Amtrak, wake up! You've slept too long! "
The VM could work well on our popular, high schedule frequency regional trains here in California - San Joaquin, Capital Corridor, Pacific Surfliner. Come to think of it, this is another argument for canning the remaining Amtrak management of these trains (but keep the operating crews).
The comment about car power is odd - I've never been on an Amtrak train that wasn't always on engine HEP or ground power.
Any city with a medium size airport has food and catering services galore. Think of the variety of meat and vegetable items that can be wrapped in a flour tortilla - no reason to mindlessly reduce selection.
Amtrack does or did have a train with an automat car: The Pere Marquette. I don't know whether it is still in use. The current timetable shows a "Cafe Car" on the Pere Marquette. Here is an article about it with pictures by a guy who has actually used it:
http://www.trainweb.com/accommod/automat.html
Automats had people behind the windows refilling them with hot food. The service described above is simply vending machines.
daveklepper Arer not you simply reviving the SP automat car? I experienced it on the Coast Daylight. Ceertainly better than nothing but not prefereble in any way to what I experienced through the winter of 95-96, which was the latest I ate in an Amtrak diner.
I too was reminded of the SP "automat" (which provided vending machines, not a live kitchen like the Horn and Hardart Automats in New York City.) I never saw one, but in "Twilight of the Great Trains" (a superb book, by the way), Fred Frailey cites them as one of the many acts which, by generating bad PR, eventually contributed to the denial of the SP/Santa Fe merger, and ultimately cost SP its independence:
Partly it was a case of earlier cost-cutting practices coming home to roost. If the articulated, triple-unit diners adorning the Lark, Cascade, Shasta Daylight and Coast Daylight spoiled the customers, then what followed was a living nightmare for people used to being pampered. On July 31, 1961, the first of what would become 17 "automatic food and beverage service cars"--automat buffets, for short--emerged from Sacramento Shops...if cold sandwiches, hot casseroles in cans and machine-brewed instant coffee weren't your thing, you would definitely not have liked automat buffet cuisine.
Everything old is new again, indeed.
ecoli daveklepper Arer not you simply reviving the SP automat car? I experienced it on the Coast Daylight. Ceertainly better than nothing but not prefereble in any way to what I experienced through the winter of 95-96, which was the latest I ate in an Amtrak diner. I too was reminded of the SP "automat" (which provided vending machines, not a live kitchen like the Horn and Hardart Automats in New York City.) I never saw one, but in "Twilight of the Great Trains" (a superb book, by the way), Fred Frailey cites them as one of the many acts which, by generating bad PR, eventually contributed to the denial of the SP/Santa Fe merger, and ultimately cost SP its independence: Partly it was a case of earlier cost-cutting practices coming home to roost. If the articulated, triple-unit diners adorning the Lark, Cascade, Shasta Daylight and Coast Daylight spoiled the customers, then what followed was a living nightmare for people used to being pampered. On July 31, 1961, the first of what would become 17 "automatic food and beverage service cars"--automat buffets, for short--emerged from Sacramento Shops...if cold sandwiches, hot casseroles in cans and machine-brewed instant coffee weren't your thing, you would definitely not have liked automat buffet cuisine. Everything old is new again, indeed.
Except now vending machines are a bit more sophisticated, reliable and robust...and we have microwave ovens! Much difference between a "Lean Cuisine" meal and an old TV dinner or can of Spaghettios of the early 60s.
oltmannd ecoli daveklepper Arer not you simply reviving the SP automat car? I experienced it on the Coast Daylight. Ceertainly better than nothing but not prefereble in any way to what I experienced through the winter of 95-96, which was the latest I ate in an Amtrak diner. I too was reminded of the SP "automat" (which provided vending machines, not a live kitchen like the Horn and Hardart Automats in New York City.) I never saw one, but in "Twilight of the Great Trains" (a superb book, by the way), Fred Frailey cites them as one of the many acts which, by generating bad PR, eventually contributed to the denial of the SP/Santa Fe merger, and ultimately cost SP its independence: Partly it was a case of earlier cost-cutting practices coming home to roost. If the articulated, triple-unit diners adorning the Lark, Cascade, Shasta Daylight and Coast Daylight spoiled the customers, then what followed was a living nightmare for people used to being pampered. On July 31, 1961, the first of what would become 17 "automatic food and beverage service cars"--automat buffets, for short--emerged from Sacramento Shops...if cold sandwiches, hot casseroles in cans and machine-brewed instant coffee weren't your thing, you would definitely not have liked automat buffet cuisine. Everything old is new again, indeed. Except now vending machines are a bit more sophisticated, reliable and robust...and we have microwave ovens! Much difference between a "Lean Cuisine" meal and an old TV dinner or can of Spaghettios of the early 60s.
The SP "automat" cars had microwave ovens beginning in 1966 (see Frailey's book.)
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.