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[quote user="blue streak 1"]   <blockquote> <div><img src="/TRCCS/Themes/trc/images/icon-quote.gif" /> Sam1:</div> <div>   The last airplane that benefited directly from military research and experience was the Boeing 707, which is a carbon copy, in many respects, of the KC-135.   <div style="clear:both;"></div>   </div> </blockquote> Nope it goes much further. You are correct about the KC-135 however the B-727, B737s were both essentially the same fuselage as the B-707 (KC-135). B-747 fuselage development that came from R & D paid by DOD for the C-5 (which went to lockheed).    Another subsidity that is almost the same amount is the cost of engines. The JTD-3 came from the eninge of the KC-135 This was the engine on B-707,720, DC-8s (JT-4s on some DC-8s also subsidized).  The JT-8 came from fighter jets and powered the DC-9, B-737- 100, -200s . The CFM-56 a GE jet on other B-737s came from military research. B-747 JT-9s came from early C-5 engines. I could go on and on. But I take umbrage saying the final customer pays all the freight (pass fare) only if riding Acelas. If those business men took an airline instead of train they would bill (either directly or causing employer to hire more persons to do the necessary jobs) for that time they could not work because of work restrictions when flying. Therefore there would be billing for security line waits, taxiing, take offs turbulence etc.    [/quote] The operative words are benefited directly.   The other airplanes were developed because the airlines quickly realized that the jet airplane was much more productive than the piston driven airplanes.  Of course, they benefited from the technology knowledge base.  Had there been no military aviation, the U.S. could have taken a clue from the British, who amongst other things were the first to develop a workable jet engine. I had a further thought regarding the development of commercial aviation that I did not include in their posting initially.  The earliest commercially viable airliners (DC-2, DC-3, and DC-4) were developed as civilian airliners.  They were not developed as military aircraft, although the military made great use of them during WWII. And if your going to claim that the airlines benefited directly from the military spend, as if there otherwise would have been no development of commercial aviation, then you need to make reference to the governmental support for the development of railroads.  Would there have been no railroads had there been no government involvement?  No one knows.   Railroads have also benefited from a technology knowledge base that was spawned in other activities.  The earliest application of steam power was not in the railroads, but rather in factories and steamboats.  Also, one of the earliest applicaions of diesel engines in the United States was the U.S. submarine program, which had learned the hard way that gasoline engines and submarines do not make good bed fellows.   But so what?  What does support for the airlines have to do with passenger railroads?  Do you honestly believe that air travel would have been thwarted and people would be happy to spend four or five days on a train getting from New York to California? The big difference is that the investment in the railroads, prior to the formation of Amtrak in 1971, was paid back.  Equally important, airline passengers and motorists have paid for their infrastructure, although sometimes it is difficult to trace.  Only rail passengers have not been able to generate sufficient revenues to pay for their mode of transport.  Whether that changes in the future remains to be seen. So I am sticking with my original point.  People who ride first and business class on Amtrak, including the Acela, get a subsidy at the expense of the taxpayers as well as their customers and clients.  As I said, the same concept applies to the customer and client aspects of first and business class air travel.  Presumably we can assume that it is not an issue with the folks who choose to ride the Bolt Bus between Philadelphia and New York, which I might add is a private enterprise operation that gets no subsidies.
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