Why not contract out our Law-making to the Canadian Parliament ? They probably have some extra time.
Why not privatize the armed forces? We could hire the French or the Japanese to patrol for us. We already pay Blackwater for this service
Why not terminate the "socialistic" Veterans Administration? The USA has plenty of extra hospital space and spreading out the wounded and ill to private hositals is a no-brainer money-maker for community health-delivery systems.
Why not end Amtrak and give everyone who needs it a free Lear Jet?
Why not privatize the Supreme Court? We have tons of would-be legal experts here in this room who would glady do the Court's job for free.
Why not fire ALL the air traffic controllers this time? Pilots ought be be able to avoid crashes simply by being more observant.
I don't see any need for USDA food inspectors. Why not rely on the traditional caveat emptor system our great-grandparents used?
Why not have one big computer and one person do ALL the switching and dispatching in the USA? Or why not let VIA, CP, and CN do it for us? So much more efficient.
Why not fire all train crews? Railfans, at least those that don't hate trains, would likely do the job for free.
Why not pay railfans in other countries to post comments here? That would give about a half dozen men here untold extra hours to do something more useful with their lives.
Why not steeply fine or jail those perverse people who'd like to ride a train across the USA? Don't they know they must learn to love "corridors"?
Why not fire all the police and firemen in the country? We could let individuals patrol the streets with their precious guns (think George Zimmerman), and we could pay people not to have fires.
Let's privatize the Post Office. Surely UPS and Fed Ex can deliver the mail cheaper because they are private companies.
We could privatize the National Weather Service and let older folks in various parts of the country simply predict the weather by dint of their long experience or the size of the coats on wooly bears.
Why not simply jail or deport union members or people who expect to work in a secure, decent job, with reasonable pay? Why simply privatize all labor by re-introducing the very American tradition of chattel slavery? No benefits or health care system were needed in those halcyon days.
Why not change the name of this site, forum, and the magazine to more closely reflect the beliefs of seemingly so many here? I suggest "No long-distance passenger TRAINS", instead.
NKP guy Why not contract out our Law-making to the Canadian Parliament ? They probably have some extra time. Why not privatize the armed forces? We could hire the French or the Japanese to patrol for us. We already pay Blackwater for this service Why not terminate the "socialistic" Veterans Administration? The USA has plenty of extra hospital space and spreading out the wounded and ill to private hositals is a no-brainer money-maker for community health-delivery systems. Why not end Amtrak and give everyone who needs it a free Lear Jet? Why not privatize the Supreme Court? We have tons of would-be legal experts here in this room who would glady do the Court's job for free. Why not fire ALL the air traffic controllers this time? Pilots ought be be able to avoid crashes simply by being more observant. I don't see any need for USDA food inspectors. Why not rely on the traditional caveat emptor system our great-grandparents used? Why not have one big computer and one person do ALL the switching and dispatching in the USA? Or why not let VIA, CP, and CN do it for us? So much more efficient. Why not fire all train crews? Railfans, at least those that don't hate trains, would likely do the job for free. Why not pay railfans in other countries to post comments here? That would give about a half dozen men here untold extra hours to do something more useful with their lives. Why not steeply fine or jail those perverse people who'd like to ride a train across the USA? Don't they know they must learn to love "corridors"? Why not fire all the police and firemen in the country? We could let individuals patrol the streets with their precious guns (think George Zimmerman), and we could pay people not to have fires. Let's privatize the Post Office. Surely UPS and Fed Ex can deliver the mail cheaper because they are private companies. We could privatize the National Weather Service and let older folks in various parts of the country simply predict the weather by dint of their long experience or the size of the coats on wooly bears. Why not simply jail or deport union members or people who expect to work in a secure, decent job, with reasonable pay? Why simply privatize all labor by re-introducing the very American tradition of chattel slavery? No benefits or health care system were needed in those halcyon days. Why not change the name of this site, forum, and the magazine to more closely reflect the beliefs of seemingly so many here? I suggest "No long-distance passenger TRAINS", instead.
The idea is to privatize government run commercial enterprises, i.e. post office, Amtrak, airports, municipal sanitation (already done in my town) etc. No one ever suggested privatizing non-commercial activities, i.e. defense, legal systems, police, fire, etc. No one has ever suggested removing regulation, especially that dealing with health and safety. In fact, the key to privatization is smart regulation that ensures a level, safe, effective, competitive platform.
I agree with you, NKP. Privatizing is not the panacea for everything our government does. And private enterprise will agree with you on many things in this area, too. I have seen buracracies in private business that were role models for inefficiency, indolence, and self preservation before even admiting there might be a customer or a product to be conisdered. Waste and ignorance are not confined to government and its agencies. Yes, even some business will find contracting out services is better than providing or producing themselve. Wholesale outsourceing could be counter productive but can also be the perfect solution situtation by situation, product by product, company by company. A mixed bag would be janitorial services. Not a value added service but needed. Some corporations have just hired outside companies to do it all while some smaller companies have found that they can keep their staff on board by having them sweep floors and empty trash cans. Overall, outsourcing is not for every job and every company, but is an available and viable alternative in some cases.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Don: Along with contracting for the DB web site, why not sub-contract with DB (actually DBAG) to develop and run a passenger train network?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6 I agree with you, NKP. Privatizing is not the panacea for everything our government does. And private enterprise will agree with you on many things in this area, too. I have seen buracracies in private business that were role models for inefficiency, indolence, and self preservation before even admiting there might be a customer or a product to be conisdered. Waste and ignorance are not confined to government and its agencies. Yes, even some business will find contracting out services is better than providing or producing themselve. Wholesale outsourceing could be counter productive but can also be the perfect solution situtation by situation, product by product, company by company. A mixed bag would be janitorial services. Not a value added service but needed. Some corporations have just hired outside companies to do it all while some smaller companies have found that they can keep their staff on board by having them sweep floors and empty trash cans. Overall, outsourcing is not for every job and every company, but is an available and viable alternative in some cases.
Privatization of a government managed commercial enterprise and outsourcing select activities (non core) are different. The first removes the activity from government operational control. The second contracts ancillary competencies whilst keeping the core competencies in-house. Unless the company in a janitorial company, sweeping floors and emptying wastebaskets along with the mailroom, to the extent there still is enough snail mail to justify it, are the activities that are outsourced.
Indeed, competitive corporations can and do have wasteful practices. If they don't fix them in time, they are out of business, unless they can get the federal government to reward them for their mistakes (GM and Chrysler). Who or what puts an inefficient government organization, i.e. Amtrak, out of business because of wasteful business practices?
Accounting and HR have become outsourced areas for small to middling companies, since the contractors can often provide more skilled competencies than could be provided in-house without an expensive increase in staff.
I am not going to argue that contracting out say car supply, including design, capital lease, maintenance, and operations, might be a cheaper way of doing things. But WHO would do it with our current arrangement of maybe 1-2 years of funding. It seems like so many capital projects on the long distance network have been differed as there is no real idea of what will be operated in the next few years.
So if you could get a say 15-20 year guarantee that some level of passenger cross-subsidy will be provided to whoever operator is bidding on in say 5-year blocks then you might get some movement. But wasn't Amtrak itself directed by Congress to "in-source" operations for train crews and such on the long distance routes in the late 1970's or early 1980's, maybe the 1979 bill? Up until then it was a contracted operation with the investor owned railroads.
As to the idea of splitting the long distance trains into daylight corridors, I see this destroying a massive amount of utility. For the non-hub airport folks a long distance train into major city is a pretty good way to compete.
The point is Sam1, outsourcing and privitizing is not the answer to all the problems...probably will create more problems in fact. Be like the drug company...privatge enterprise mind you...when they no longer made the huge profit they wanted to with a certain cancer drug, they stopped making it despite they had a monopoly and millions suffered and were endangered because the drug was gone. Moral and social responsiblity is gone when private enterprise enters the picture 100%. I used to think different, but now I don''t trust private enterprise and free markets to do much for the future of our country. Scarey, ain't it?
V.Payne I am not going to argue that contracting out say car supply, including design, capital lease, maintenance, and operations, might be a cheaper way of doing things. But WHO would do it with our current arrangement of maybe 1-2 years of funding. It seems like so many capital projects on the long distance network have been differed as there is no real idea of what will be operated in the next few years. So if you could get a say 15-20 year guarantee that some level of passenger cross-subsidy will be provided to whoever operator is bidding on in say 5-year blocks then you might get some movement. But wasn't Amtrak itself directed by Congress to "in-source" operations for train crews and such on the long distance routes in the late 1970's or early 1980's, maybe the 1979 bill? Up until then it was a contracted operation with the investor owned railroads. As to the idea of splitting the long distance trains into daylight corridors, I see this destroying a massive amount of utility. For the non-hub airport folks a long distance train into major city is a pretty good way to compete.
You've got the crux of the problem...short term financing and planning, all at the whim of Congress which changes its mind and direction with every session and Congress. You hear the the business class in Congress saying it should be run like a business then choke off the funds so plans cannot be made in a business like fashion. Setting Amtrak up lke the U.S. Postal service or like the did Conrail (two entirely different things, I know, but niether are Amtrak) to get it out from under all the thumbs of Congress would be a good start. Once Amtrak was set up like that, then it might be able to make business or operating decision which would bring progress if not success.
henry6 V.Payne: I am not going to argue that contracting out say car supply, including design, capital lease, maintenance, and operations, might be a cheaper way of doing things. But WHO would do it with our current arrangement of maybe 1-2 years of funding. It seems like so many capital projects on the long distance network have been differed as there is no real idea of what will be operated in the next few years. So if you could get a say 15-20 year guarantee that some level of passenger cross-subsidy will be provided to whoever operator is bidding on in say 5-year blocks then you might get some movement. But wasn't Amtrak itself directed by Congress to "in-source" operations for train crews and such on the long distance routes in the late 1970's or early 1980's, maybe the 1979 bill? Up until then it was a contracted operation with the investor owned railroads. As to the idea of splitting the long distance trains into daylight corridors, I see this destroying a massive amount of utility. For the non-hub airport folks a long distance train into major city is a pretty good way to compete. You've got the crux of the problem...short term financing and planning, all at the whim of Congress which changes its mind and direction with every session and Congress. You hear the the business class in Congress saying it should be run like a business then choke off the funds so plans cannot be made in a business like fashion. Setting Amtrak up lke the U.S. Postal service or like the did Conrail (two entirely different things, I know, but niether are Amtrak) to get it out from under all the thumbs of Congress would be a good start. Once Amtrak was set up like that, then it might be able to make business or operating decision which would bring progress if not success.
V.Payne: I am not going to argue that contracting out say car supply, including design, capital lease, maintenance, and operations, might be a cheaper way of doing things. But WHO would do it with our current arrangement of maybe 1-2 years of funding. It seems like so many capital projects on the long distance network have been differed as there is no real idea of what will be operated in the next few years. So if you could get a say 15-20 year guarantee that some level of passenger cross-subsidy will be provided to whoever operator is bidding on in say 5-year blocks then you might get some movement. But wasn't Amtrak itself directed by Congress to "in-source" operations for train crews and such on the long distance routes in the late 1970's or early 1980's, maybe the 1979 bill? Up until then it was a contracted operation with the investor owned railroads. As to the idea of splitting the long distance trains into daylight corridors, I see this destroying a massive amount of utility. For the non-hub airport folks a long distance train into major city is a pretty good way to compete.
If Amtrak were out from under the sponsorship of Congress, it would be dead in the water in a heartbeat. It survives not because it is an effective business model but because it is a political animal.
Business is a relatively simply proposition. Offer goods or services that people will buy in an arms length transaction. Price them to cover the costs and provide a return to the shareholders. If the users won't pay the price to cover the costs, the business fails.
If the business provides a service that is critical to the well being of the nation, e.g. electric energy, and it cannot earn a return, one can make a viable argument that it should be run by the state or subsidized.
Intercity passenger trains are not critical to the well being of the nation. They may become so in the future because of increased congestion and environmental reasons. If they went away, which I would not like to see, few people, with the possible of those living along the NEC and southern California, would not miss them. In in those busy corridors there are viable alternatives. Think Megabus.
"Think Megabus." I guess that says it all. This is supposed to be a forum of Trains, for passenger trains, and yet this poster seems to think intercity buses are the answer, even in the NEC. If that is so, why post on this forum? Of course free speech allows that, but why continue when he clearly would like to see Amtrak or any other government passenger rail service replaced by a private bus company.
schlimm "Think Megabus." I guess that says it all. This is supposed to be a forum of Trains, for passenger trains, and yet this poster seems to think intercity buses are the answer, even in the NEC. If that is so, why post on this forum? Of course free speech allows that, but why continue when he clearly would like to see Amtrak or any other government passenger rail service replaced by a private bus company.
No, it does not say it all. You have taken the last phrase out of context.
One version of Megabus, but on a much smaller scale is one that one of our neighbours has put together that transports Amish/Mennonite families between London ON and places to the north of here.
I think privatization has its role here here as well.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
And what is the context that magically changes the meaning of your statement? It does appear to have some problems with syntax, which makes it unclear, with internal contradictions.
Megabus is the answer to filling empty seats which would otherwise be empty on a bus between to points. Does not guarentee a similar price on return trip. More a markrting tool than a real rate. Also price starts at a buck and can move up, too.
Amtak has been able to fill trains with rates they've got. That is not the problem The problem is that with Congress being its bank and being the ones who hire and fire the President and its board according to it's whim and fancey, there is no stability. With an election coming up this November, no one who works under those circumstances is sure of his employment after January 2013. So, why bother plannng for Valentines Day when you may not be celebrating New Years?
schlimm And what is the context that magically changes the meaning of your statement? It does appear to have some problems with syntax, which makes it unclear, with internal contradictions.
Here is the paragraph: "Intercity passenger trains are not critical to the well being of the nation. They may become so in the future because of increased congestion and environmental reasons. If they went away, which I would not like to see, few people, with the possibility of those living along the NEC and in southern California, would not miss them. In those busy corridors there are viable alternatives. Think Megabus!"
Lifting Think Megabus out of the paragraph is akin to claiming that a movie trailer is the movie. Think Megabus was set in the context of intercity passenger trains not being critical to the well being of the nation. Just quoting "Think Megabus" is stating it out of context. Intercity buses, as well as other modes of transport (commercial and personal) are viable alternatives. Megabus is a viable alternative. And unlike Amtrak, it makes money. It either does so or it goes out of business.
We have beat this topic to death. It is time to move on.
Sam1 We have beat this topic to death. It is time to move on.
Sounds like Sam1 is locking the thread. I wish she wouldn't, because since the thread on California HSR got shut down, this is one of the few Forum discussions that isn't about grade crossings or train wrecks. (I know, if I'm not interested in those subjects, I don't have to read -- and I don't.)
dakotafred Sam1: We have beat this topic to death. It is time to move on. Sounds like Sam1 is locking the thread. I wish she wouldn't, because since the thread on California HSR got shut down, this is one of the few Forum discussions that isn't about grade crossings or train wrecks. (I know, if I'm not interested in those subjects, I don't have to read -- and I don't.)
Sam1: We have beat this topic to death. It is time to move on.
I don't have the authority to lock the thread. But I am moving on.
Sam1 Intercity passenger trains are not critical to the well being of the nation. They may become so in the future because of increased congestion and environmental reasons. If they went away, which I would not like to see, few people, with the possible of those living along the NEC and southern California, would not miss them. In in those busy corridors there are viable alternatives. Think Megabus.
I understand that airport congestion caused by the air shuttles between the major Northeast cities was a consideration for retaining the NEC. But since the airport take-off slots bare probably mostly filled by now, Megabus mat be the only alternative if you got rid of it. The question is, how many Megabus runs per day would it take to replace NEC service?
Any discussion must end at some point and I think this point has been reached.
Time to move on, folks!
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