I have read that in its hayday the 20th Century Limited had to run multiple sections to accomodated all the passangers. Does any know the recorded number of sections run in one day?
I know this has been discussed on thes pages...enter search and see what pops.
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was known to run in as many as either 7 or 9 sections. Not a definitive answer, I know...but, FWIW.
7 or 9 sections were possible in the heavyweight steam days when Pullman could supply addiitonal matching equpment, and trains were limited to nine cars. In the lightweight equipment days, two was the maximum, because the equipment was special. But 14 and 15 car trains were run on occasion.
Try this link to a discussion from the CLASSIC TRAINS forum. The question was about the Broadway Limited, but the subject wandered over to the 20th Century Limited as well.
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/192054.aspx
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Another thing to remember about preceeding sections of trains...not all sections would run the entire route...Say out of GCT witht he Century, 2nd section went to Cleveland, 3rd to Buffalo, 4th to Rochester, 5th to Syracus, 6th to Utica, 7th to Albany. OR a section would be added between Buffalo and Chicago or something like that..
That was true of lesser trains such as the "Ohio State Limited", etc that would
have say a Buffalo section for the "shorts". The "Century" did not even handle
passengers for places such as Buffalo and Cleveland.
And older versions of the Commodore didn't stop in Cleveland or Buffalo, either.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Nor did the New England States stop in Cleveland after replacing the Boston section of the 20th Century as a heavyweight all-Pullman replacement, through the years it was streamlined with coaches added, until sometime in the 1960's when it began handling the Toronto, Detroit, Cincinnati, and St. Louis cars upon discontinuance of the New England Woverine.
Maybe the idea of having multiple sections of the 20th Century run non-stop to various cities would have been a good marketing ploy or fantasy, but that is not what NYC ever did.
Ok...so the NYC didn't do it (but I'm not totally sure they didn't) ...I know other roads that did. DL&W would run advance or second sections of train from Hoboken to Scranton, Binghamton, and/or Elmira as part of a Buffalo schedule for instance.
The "Century" was not like "other" trains. What the DLW did
had no bearing on what the Central did.
Sorry.
henry6 Ok...so the NYC didn't do it (but I'm not totally sure they didn't) ...I know other roads that did. DL&W would run advance or second sections of train from Hoboken to Scranton, Binghamton, and/or Elmira as part of a Buffalo schedule for instance.
Thats correct Henry. Plus the Lackawanna had other cars staged at places such as Scranton, Binghamton etc.
Except that prior to the 1938 streamlining, the Century would run as one train Chi-Albany, and the Boston cars would be switched in and out there. In any period of heavy traffic the Boston cars would run in one through train without switching, Chicago - Boston. (After streamlining the Century, the Central repaced the Boston section with the separate, heavyweight until about 1948, New England States.
I did a little digging on this issue. "The Twentieth Century Limited, 1938-1967, page 1" - ....evolved into a 14-car train of heavyweight all-steel equipment in the 1920s running usually in several sections. Also from "Night Trains" by Peter Maiken - 1929 was the record year for Century travel. NYC ran 2,153 trains to carry more than 240,000 passengers. The record load came in January 1929 when NYC filled seven separate sections of the train carrying 822 passengers to New York for the national automobile show. By 1938 ridership had decreased to a point that the famous Dreyfuss 1938 Century came close to never happening.
Kevin C. Smith I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was known to run in as many as either 7 or 9 sections. Not a definitive answer, I know...but, FWIW.
The record set by the Century occured on January 7, 1929 when it ran seven identical sections. The reason, of all things, was a car show people wanted to attend in New York City. Due to this show a grand total, including trains other than the Century, of 266 sleeping cars arrived at GCS.
As Dave Klepper mentioned it was kept to a maximum of 9 cars for each section. This was done not only on the Century but the Broadway as well. Keeping a minimum amount of people in each train allowed for a more comfortable dining experience and lounge cars not overly crowded. The railroads wanted these premier trains to be as comfortable as possible.
henry6 Another thing to remember about preceeding sections of trains...not all sections would run the entire route...Say out of GCT witht he Century, 2nd section went to Cleveland, 3rd to Buffalo, 4th to Rochester, 5th to Syracus, 6th to Utica, 7th to Albany. OR a section would be added between Buffalo and Chicago or something like that..
I once came across a photograph in either Trains or Classic Trains Magazine (?) that showed oil tycoon John D. Rockefeller getting off a train in Cleveland, the caption mentioned he was getting off the Century at Cleveland Union Terminal. I thought the Century did not stop in Cleveland and I questioned the captions claim.
Years ago I had a neighbor who's railroad career spand 45 years, he started with the NYC and had the distinction of being the fireman on the last run of the Century in December of 1967. I always joked with him he was a part of history and as he made the run from Toledo to Buffalo, he nor the engineer believed the Century was done. They did note the unusually large crowds of people with camera's at various stations, despite the late night run. Finally when they got to Buffalo the crew relieving them convinced them it was true, no more Century. He would just laugh and said to him it meant one less passenger train to worry about, he preferred freight and took the run on the Century as a favor.
I asked him about the photograph I had seen and asked if it was possible that the Century would have stopped to let Rockefeller off in Cleveland. He told me that Cleveland up into the early 1960's was home to several corporate national headquarters and well to do businessmen would take the Century to Cleveland. If he was instructed to stop in Cleveland he did. With the Century it was usually done with a trailing section so he stated it would not surprise him if they did accomodate Mr. Rockefeller, who at the time was living in Cleveland. The stop when made was quick and rarely had an effect on the running time.
Another of my neighbors was also a retired railroader who started with the NYC, he and a fellow worker who started with the Central in 1937 granted me an interview which I recorded for an article I was working on. In our conversation I also asked them about the Century in Cleveland, neither worked on that train in their careers but both stated they had heard of the Century making unscheduled stops on ocassion in Cleveland, jokingly they stated that "money talks".
Henry6, you may be on to something in your statement.
Actually, K4sPRR, I will bow to NYCophiles and their statement that if a 20th Century Ltd ran in sections it did so for the full route and not NYC to Buffalo or Cleveland. I do know other roads, particularly the DL&W, would run Hoboken to Scranton, Binghmton, Elmira, and Buffalo with Miss Phoebe in sections; but that was the DL&W and not NYC. And I am sure other NYC trains may have run sections for parts of full routes when needed, just not the Century.
In the steam era, trains thru Cleveland Union Terminal would have to change to electric before running into CUT, and then change back if they continued past Cleveland. Did trains not stopping at CUT take a bypass route?
You are correct about the change during the steam era to electric when going to Cleveland Union Terminal which opened in the early 1930's. Prior to that the NYC used the Old Union Depot, a shared facility with the PRR along the lakefront. The photo I mentioned was rather old, probably pre CUT era.
There were a bypass routes for those trains not stopping in Cleveland.
The "Century" ran via Collinwood yard and did not
use Cleveland Union Terminal. The NYC had plenty
of other trains and the "Century" never ran an extra
section to any other cities other than New York or
Chicago.
Did they actually cut off the steam, put on an electric, then cut off the electric and put a steamer back on or did they just hang an electric on the headend and haul the train, steamer and all?
The CENTURY made a brief stop every night eastbound, very early AM westbound in East Cleveland to change crews. As a rider I winessed passengers detrain there. This was never in the timetable, but if you were in the right graces of the NYC it was possible.
Similarly it was "impossible" ride the CENTURY Grand Central-Albany, but there were select riders who paid the sleeper seat charge and were allowed to do so. Again I know this from direct personal observation as a rider in the mid-1960s.
On the BROADWAY LIMITED there was a little-known nearly private club of riders who used the BWAY NYC-Paoli, again paying the seat in a sleeper charge and actually riding in the diner and/or the observation lounge car. I personally did this twice--again in the 1960s. As I recall you could only book on the day and this was definitely not in the public timetable.
Carl Fowler
henry6 Did they actually cut off the steam, put on an electric, then cut off the electric and put a steamer back on or did they just hang an electric on the headend and haul the train, steamer and all?
The steamer came off, since the whole idea was keeping smoke out of CUT.
Up to the streamlining in 1938, the Century would occsaionally run a separate Boston Chicago or Chicago - Boston section during periods of heavy traffic to avoid switching at Albany. This would also be limited to 9 cars. I did not hear of any extra sections being run to Boston, but there may ahve been such.
Through most of its history the 20th CENTURY LIMITED did not run via Cleveland Union Terminal. (CUT) Instead it took the freight by-pass line which ran along the Lake Erie waterfront. This required no change of engines, as it was not electrified. This is the route Amtrak's LAKESHORE LIMITED takes today.
The NYC through CUT has been severed by the use of most of the lower platform level of CUT as parking (the Cleveland Rapid Transit Lines remain in CUT on the platform level and are very much in use), but theoretically could be restored. The alignment is intact and the parallel Norfolk Southern/Nickel Plate tracks are still very much in use, although they diverge slightly southwest a bit west of the exit from CUT. Restoration would not be cheap, but it would not require massive demolition.
Engines could be changed in the steam era at the East Cleveland/Collinswood yards as needed, but not due to the need to go electric in the case of the CENTURY. The CUT electrics were ultimately moved to service at GCT in New York when complete dieselization rendered them no longer needed in Cleveland and some survived in service to the 1970s.
The NYC "crack" New York-Cleveland train was the CLEVELAND LIMITED, which generally left Grand Central about 90 minutes to 2 hours behind the CENTURY at 730-800PM, arriving Cleveland around 800AM the next morning. This train made it to the mid-1960s and remained a 'not bad" service to the end with sleepers, a New York-Albany diner-lounge car and a light breakfast served into Cleveland for sleeper passengers in a 6 Bedroom Loung-sleeper in the final incarnation. In the 1950s diner service went all the way. At peak the train was all-Pullman, but not at the end. This train sometimes also carried the through New York-Toronto sleepers/coaches handed off to the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo/Canadian Pacific at Buffalo Central Terminal. This was a particularly strong sleeper route.
Carl Fowler, President
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Back in the fifties, there was a brief article in Trains which described how passengers would be boarded on the Century in one or more upstate cities; several railroad employees would be used at the station, since the train did not stop, but slowed so that the passengers and their baggage could be put on board. First, the baggage would be thrown aboard, and then two employees would lift the passenger and throw him/her up to the vestibule. This was a rather undignified means of boarding, but if the passenger was determined to ride the Century from that point, there was no other way.
Johnny
Deggesty Back in the fifties, there was a brief article in Trains which described how passengers would be boarded on the Century in one or more upstate cities; several railroad employees would be used at the station, since the train did not stop, but slowed so that the passengers and their baggage could be put on board. First, the baggage would be thrown aboard, and then two employees would lift the passenger and throw him/her up to the vestibule. This was a rather undignified means of boarding, but if the passenger was determined to ride the Century from that point, there was no other way.
I believe that the article appeared in the July 1965 issue and was titled "Boarding the Century at Utica".
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