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NEC milepost designations

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Posted by henry6 on Sunday, July 24, 2011 9:03 PM

timz

 schlimm:
Seems like it would be easy enough to verify the accuracy of ETT's and TT's
Easier now than it used to be, now that we can measure distances on Google Maps. (Hard to believe how good a job Google does.) But aside from that, how would you find out if NY Penn to Newark is 9.9 or 10.5 miles-- i.e. whether the 1978 or 2010 ETT is right?

Walk from NYP to Newark Penn with a pedometer.  Or read books or the internet postings that give you the answer.  OR if it is so important why not write AMtrak or NJTransit and ask them.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:38 AM

Can you get permission to walk through the NEC Hudson River Tunnels?   Also, where along which platform at Penn Station is zero?

I have an explanation for the latest change.

Possibly the New York Connecting railroad, the line to the Hell Gate Bridge and to New Rochelle, used a different starting point in the Penn Station complex than did the PRR, and the LIRR may have used a third.   Possiblyi the latest change was to get all these starting points together.

Similarly the Trenton point may be have been a division between SEPTA and NJT although Amtrak is the owner, or possibly a matter of maintenance responsibilities.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 9:11 AM

If anyone is rabid enough to want to do it, Dave, they have my permission.  But I don't know them.

Incidently, checking the NJT track diagram books from 2005 and 2011 both show Hudson to be 8.3 miles from Penn Sta and 7.2 miles from Jersey City.  Differences in the employee timetables, therefore, is the definition of the designated "location" for block operating purposes.  In other words the rairoad hasn't changed but the designated point has been moved or renamed on paper at least..  It could be that the original designation was at the beginning of the interlocking limit or at the first switch westbound and now the designation is at a marker in the middle of the interlocking.    Dock remains at 8.5. 

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Posted by timz on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 10:34 AM

daveklepper
where along which platform at Penn Station is zero?

That one we could hope to find on paper somewhere. I'm guessing it was the centerline of the pre-1963 waiting room (not the concourse). No reason NY Conn would use anything different; LIRR probably didn't have any milepost at NY Penn.
henry6
NJT track diagram books from 2005 and 2011 both show Hudson to be 8.3 miles from Penn Sta and 7.2 miles from Jersey City
6.2 miles from Jersey City, you mean-- Jersey City was MP 1.0. But yes, that's part of their error-- any given point west of Hudson is about 2.35 miles (not 2.1 miles) closer to Jersey City than it is to NY Penn.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:08 PM

If you go to NYP there is a MP0 somewhere at the west end of the platforms...it is designated somewhere in the ETT's and on the diagrams but I'm not home to look.  And, timz, NO I MEANT 7.2 BECAUSE, AS I SAID IN MY POST, THAT IS WHAT BOTH DIAGRAMS READ: 7.2 or 8.3 AT THE BEGINNING OF THE INTERLOCKING LIMITS.    And if they are in error, you better tell them because they evidently aren't operating right since they are operating with the wrong information.  Actually the 1.O at JC was for the ferry ride and it was never changed in tribute to the PRR or, as I have pointed out, it would mean changing a lot of numbers, mile posts, signal and switch numbers all the way to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh depending on which line you are running on.  The complications of changing all those things are so confusing and entangled that is not worth bothering doing anything with it but leave it as it is.   But why does it bother you so much?

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 6:03 PM

I stand corrected about MP 0 at NYP.  It is not west of the platforms but is at the exact mid point of the platforms!  with interlockings at each end marked as being at  MP 0.1. 

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Posted by timz on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 6:37 PM

You must be referring to the platform between tracks 11-12? It was extended around 1930, so if MP 0 was originally at that platform's midpoint (which it wasn't) it wouldn't be at the midpoint now.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:54 PM

The line goes straight down the mid point of all the platforms, the mid point of the "station", the mid point of the page so that all tracks are at zero paralleled east and west.

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Posted by timz on Thursday, July 28, 2011 12:07 PM

henry6
The line goes straight down the mid point of all the platforms

There is no such straight line, of course. Best guess for Milepost Zero is a point 20 feet (plus or minus maybe 10? feet) west of a point midway between 7th and 8th Ave; that may have been the center of the waiting room.

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:25 PM

My grade school art teacher told me  I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler.  I didn't draw this line.  It is on the diagram.  It is a straight line down the middle of the diagram and the first interlocking east and west of the line is marked 0.1.  It is the point zero from which all other calculations are made.  It is not my doing.  No, you won't see it marked on the platform.  But it exists for technical purposes.  

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Posted by Dayliner on Friday, July 29, 2011 1:07 PM

henry6
In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident.

OK, so how is that crossing designated and identified?

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, July 29, 2011 4:50 PM

Dayliner

 henry6:
In effect, it is none of his business and there is no legal reason he has to know any of that material except maybe the grade crossing designation when 911'ing an accident.

OK, so how is that crossing designated and identified?

I am sorry, I figured everyone here are railfans or railroaders and have a basic knowledge of the subject.  Sometimes we old farts take too much for granted.  Basically, if  you look at a railroad grade crossing sign or crossbucks, the one of the right as you face the tracks and is facing road traffic, you'll see there is a tag that identifies the grade crossing by railroad, mile post, road name, some other information, plus an 800 number to call in case of problems or questions.  The plaque is about three or so inches wide and maybe eight or so inches high, usually off white with black letters.  I've seen some being of reflective material but that's not the norm.

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Posted by Dayliner on Saturday, July 30, 2011 8:56 PM

Let me see if I can make the question clearer.  In the case of the NEC crossings, what information is given--i.e., what is the name of the railroad (OK, I know it's Amtrak in this case), the division, the mileage?

 

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Posted by henry6 on Sunday, July 31, 2011 8:24 AM

What specific crossings are you talking about.  Any specific crossing is marked as described above, you can drive to it and read the posted signs.  If you cannot get to the crossing you can probably find the information on the AAR or someother website if you google it or state the specific crossing here and someone with an Amtrak ETT or other material can answer.

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Posted by DMUinCT on Sunday, July 31, 2011 9:44 AM

Dayliner

Let me see if I can make the question clearer.  In the case of the NEC crossings, what information is given--i.e., what is the name of the railroad (OK, I know it's Amtrak in this case), the division, the mileage?

 

No worry on the NEC between New York and Boston.   Five crossings still exist between New London CT and Westerly RI, all protected with 4 Quadrant Gates.  Speed reduction to 89mph or less do to crossings and bridges are in place.  Once you clear Westerly RI, northbound, you can open up to 150mph. (Acela)

Don U. TCA 73-5735

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