Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited

[indiana rr]

I'm trying to figure out where the CL and LSL separate.  Looking at the time tables it is sometime after the Cleveland stop.  The CL goes next to Alliance, Ohio, and the LSL heads towards Erie, PA.  Does anyone know what mile post or town the routes physically separate?  Thank you in advance.

[oltmannd]

In downtown Cleveland right at the Amtrak station.

[indiana rr]

Thanks for the quick answer.

[daveklepper]

Except I would not call it downtown, I would call it Lakefront.   Downtown is Public Square where the old Union Terminal, still seeing rapid transit rail passengers, and Terminal Tower are located, plus Euclid Avenue on out to Playhouse Square.   The location of the Amtrak station is one of the gripes of Clevelanders about Amtrak service.   I'm not sure that the tracks are in to run regular passenger trains into the old Union Terminal.   There is a light rail line connecting to the  Amtrak Station, but the last I heard there was zero service at the time Amtrak trains were scheduled!  

[oltmannd]

daveklepper

Except I would not call it downtown, I would call it Lakefront.   Downtown is Public Square where the old Union Terminal, still seeing rapid transit rail passengers, and Terminal Tower are located, plus Euclid Avenue on out to Playhouse Square.   The location of the Amtrak station is one of the gripes of Clevelanders about Amtrak service.   I'm not sure that the tracks are in to run regular passenger trains into the old Union Terminal.   There is a light rail line connecting to the  Amtrak Station, but the last I heard there was zero service at the time Amtrak trains were scheduled!  

Good point, Dave.  I stand corrected!

[NKP guy]

There are no tracks in, or leading to, the Cleveland Union Terminal, although, of course, the right of way is still there.  The tracks in the station were taken up to make a parking lot for the subsequent Tower City development.  

In November of 1971, I rode the Amtrak train that succeeded the New York Central's service between New York and Cleveland.  This was my first long-distance Amtrak trip.  That train was taken off in 1972, and Cleveland was without any Amtrak service for several years.

In October of 1976, I wrote to E.M. Frimbo ("the world's greatest railroad buff"), who in real life was Rogers Whitaker, a distinguished editor at The New Yorker,  seeking his aid in getting the new Amtrak Lake Shore Limited to return to the Union Terminal, instead of the proposed trailer on the lakefront.  In his letter to me, Frimbo pointed out that the Terminal's signaling equipment was removed in order to hamper Amtrak in case it intended to return.  He also pointed out that the then-owners of the Cleveland Union Terminal wanted a rent of $1,500 per train, or, $3,000 per day from Amtrak if (somehow) they wanted to use the station.  As Frimbo pointed out, no train service could pay that rent and break even, let along make a profit.

As John Stilgoe pointed out in Metropolitan Corridor, although railroad stations belonged legally to the railroad, they belonged emotionally to the town they served.  Certainly this was true in Cleveland.  The filthy business of keeping the Union Terminal from ever being used again was decided by non-Clevelanders.  We have been paying the price ever since.  Someone ought to explain to us faithful Amtrak customers why it is that the concrete platform on Cleveland's cold and windy lakefront doesn't even have a cover over our heads.  Rain, snow, hail....anything can fall on customers on that platform.  

One last thought:  Some years ago, when the Capitol Limited was routed via Cleveland, instead of the old B&O to Akron, Amtrak paid about $1 million dollars to install a switch to connect the former Pennsylvania RR tracks to those of the former New York Central at a point just east of the present depot (the dividing point referred to in the original post here). Was that a good bargain for Amtrak?  Do you suspect the freight railroads got, and get, more use out of that switch than Amtrak and its customers?  Did that switch save any money over the costs of re-using the CUT?  And how do you suppose the dispatchers on NS & CSX today like having four passenger trains trying to use one platform on the busy lakefront lines?  Oh, and there's a lift bridge just a half-mile away to further mess things up.

I love both of these trains, but every time I ride them I am reminded of what has been lost, just thrown away, by people, including some who contribute to this forum, who wanted, and still want, Amtrak to fail.  Thanks a lot.

 

 

[daveklepper]

Having used both the old Union Terminal and enjoyed many a meal in the Oak Room between trains, and then used the Lake Front, I agree.

I would often ride coach from places like St. Louis, Dayton, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Columbus, to Cleveland, and then a roomette on the New England States to Boston.   The Oak Room and a good Clevelnd friend to join me, made the hour or so between trains most enjoyable.