daveklepper There are deaf people who use the trains who need visual announcements and there are people who don't see well who need vocal announcements. In addtion to routine next stop and next train announcements, Audio-Visual excellence is essential in emergencies. And that is its real prime purpose. And it can reduce the deficit by appropriate advertising!! Complaints about this being gold plating are comp[lete and utter hogwash. There is absolutely no computer authority or transit system in North Ameerica that is gold plated. Switaerland, yes. Go there and enjoy!
There are deaf people who use the trains who need visual announcements and there are people who don't see well who need vocal announcements. In addtion to routine next stop and next train announcements, Audio-Visual excellence is essential in emergencies. And that is its real prime purpose. And it can reduce the deficit by appropriate advertising!! Complaints about this being gold plating are comp[lete and utter hogwash.
There is absolutely no computer authority or transit system in North Ameerica that is gold plated.
Switaerland, yes. Go there and enjoy!
Would love to go to Switzerland.
As long as there are trainmen on the train and there is no automatic fare collection. All that trainlined, added cost, not gonna shop the train when it breaks stuff is "nice to have", not necessary and is being included in the specs because the vendors come by the RRs and their consultants and sell it. Neither has skin in the game that would lead to lower costs, so "why not"? Don't be naive....
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime!
I'm not saying they are useless, but they certainly aren't "essential". They just aren't worth the cost to purchase and maintain. Equipment procurement is all done with "other people's money".
I have ridden commuter trains, peak, off peak, here and there, hither and yon. Lots of them. MUs, converted LD coaches, Gallery cars, bi-levels, open window, slow, fast, you name it.
oltmannd henry6: As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime! I'm not saying they are useless, but they certainly aren't "essential". They just aren't worth the cost to purchase and maintain. Equipment procurement is all done with "other people's money". I have ridden commuter trains, peak, off peak, here and there, hither and yon. Lots of them. MUs, converted LD coaches, Gallery cars, bi-levels, open window, slow, fast, you name it.
henry6: As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime!
The problem is if you only look at what's "essential" - you eliminate one of the prime motivators for travel. If I wanted to be limited to what's barely essential, I can do that at home - zero cost. Of course, I'll never go anywhere, see anything, do anything, experience anything, or meet anyone - but those aren't "essential" either.
Stripping everything down to 'essential' might save money, but it doesn't make it better. It just makes it cost less.
Comrad_Durandal oltmannd: henry6: As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime! I'm not saying they are useless, but they certainly aren't "essential". They just aren't worth the cost to purchase and maintain. Equipment procurement is all done with "other people's money". I have ridden commuter trains, peak, off peak, here and there, hither and yon. Lots of them. MUs, converted LD coaches, Gallery cars, bi-levels, open window, slow, fast, you name it. The problem is if you only look at what's "essential" - you eliminate one of the prime motivators for travel. If I wanted to be limited to what's barely essential, I can do that at home - zero cost. Of course, I'll never go anywhere, see anything, do anything, experience anything, or meet anyone - but those aren't "essential" either. Stripping everything down to 'essential' might save money, but it doesn't make it better. It just makes it cost less.
oltmannd: henry6: As I indicated earlier, I travel a lot of commuter trains with my Ride With Me Henry groups: LIRR, MNRR, NJT, PATH, PATCO, SEPTA, AMTRAK, light rail, buses, subways,...all of it. And nothing is gold plated...every item you complain about Oltman adds to the ease of finding the right train,the right destination, where to get on and off, etc. At peak times, it probably elminates several on the platform people to guide riders, and even on the train there are fewer trainmen than years ago. Unless you have really ridden any commuter service, peak or off peak, weekday or weekend, you probably don't understand why all these things are essential and make the system work better. Join us sometime! I'm not saying they are useless, but they certainly aren't "essential". They just aren't worth the cost to purchase and maintain. Equipment procurement is all done with "other people's money". I have ridden commuter trains, peak, off peak, here and there, hither and yon. Lots of them. MUs, converted LD coaches, Gallery cars, bi-levels, open window, slow, fast, you name it.
The "holy triad" for transit/commuter service is:
-Single seat ride
-Trip time
-Cost
In that order.
All other things are "nice to have" but aren't strong drivers of ridership.
Does anyone think that a commuter coach that has the AC system separate from the heating system, like a transit bus, will really attract significantly fewer riders than one with an integrated system? Does a commuter really car if his 72 degree coach has a dew point of 65 or 55 degrees? He's only going to be on there for 45 minute or so, not all day long.
Your listing of "one seat ride" is indicative of why air conditioning on hot days, heat on cool and cold mornings, visual and voice messages are also important. Modern commuters are somwhat spoiled and want to be more than accomodated. Inexpensive tickets is a given. But more than anything else, a commuter wants reliability of ontime performance and his same seat in the same place at the same time each morning and each afternoon. What you are looking at as "beyond essential" may actually be essential for crowd control and uniformity of equipment for management. It may be marketing and operating rolled into one. Buses go the extra mile with your "non essentials", trains have to too.
A group from Trains Forums lecturing a dude who works for NS on "your proposed changes can't be done", "it's always been done this way", and "you really don't understand the railroad industry" . . .
Priceless!
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
In plain words, what are you attempting to say? That an employee of NS is the final arbiter of everything, even passenger service?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Again, properly done, rail audio-visual for passengers shows a return on the investment and contributes to reduction of the deficit by skillfill, appropriate, and reasonably listenable and viewable advertizing. But its main purpose is to insure maximum safety in emergencies. It certainly contributes to passenger comfort and peace of mind, as well.
schlimm In plain words, what are you attempting to say? That an employee of NS is the final arbiter of everything, even passenger service?
What I am saying all along is that the advocacy community has gotten more and more skeptical of change with respect to how Amtrak operates or in this case how commuter trains operate. At one time, perhaps, the advocacy community welcomed changes, but I think people in the community have become more and more skeptical of change, especially when many "reform" ideas come from quarters that are otherwise not sympathetic to passenger trains.
Railroads and railroad people, traditionally and famously, have been resistant to change and especially to suggestions from people "from the outside" thinking they can set right whatever ails the railroad industry. But members of the advocacy community have become so skeptical of change from the way things are done that a bunch of advocacy people are giving the "son, we don't do things around here that way" line to a railroad person. In the journalism biz, that is called a "man bites dog story" because when a dog bites a man, it is unfortunate but it is not major news because dogs do that sometimes, but when a man bites a dog, that is something quite out of the ordinary.
I was going to comment that I thought Don to be wrong on this one. Our local bus service has those GPS destination signs and automatic announcements of landmarks along the bus route to aid people in finding their stop, probably even more important because the bus service makes substantial money from "bus wraps", large banner ads that darken and cloud the bus windows, so a person can hardly see out sometimes. I am just guessing and speculating, but I am guessing that these electronic GPS gizmos are perhaps the cheapest thing on the bus on account that electronics are so ubiquitous these days.
On the other hand, the bus service is acquiring more of those hybrid buses, which cost multiples of a conventional bus and saves maybe 20 percent on fuel, about the same percentage as a hybrid car saves over a regular car when you compare the same size class. My rough back-of-the-envelope calculations suggests they are never going to get that money back in fuel savings, and given that hybrids costs multiples of a conventional bus, buying those things will put a crimp in the ongoing replacement of the old, worn-out buses. I am thinking that thy hybrid buses are a PR gimmick to "go green", but I am open to changing my mind if someone shows me some cost numbers.
With respect to the advocacy community becoming even more "stick in the mud" than the railroad people, a big deal was made in our local Wisconsin advocacy group that one of the leaders in the Illinois advocacy community who played a role in the new Illinois trains came up to visit and that the membership should meet this person. Said person from Illinois was explaining about how the Illinois trains are capacity constrained owing to shortage of equipment, and the shortage was acute on weekends as much of the travel is college students going home on weekends.
I suggested that perhaps Metra gallery cars could provide supplemental capacity for the weekend peak given the Metra peak to be rush hour on work days. I was met with the most venomously snarky response to my suggestion, something to the effect "should we have passengers ride in gondola cars"?
Just weeks later, our advocacy group invited to a breakfast meeting one of the principal passenger rail people in WisDOT. Mind you this is all pre "we got the Talgo" followed by "oops, we don't got the Talgo", and we were reminding the WisDOT person of the interest of the advocacy community in Wisconsin in a second daily Chicago-St Paul train to supplement the Empire Builder service in that corridor. Our "friend at WisDOT" told us how WisDOT lobbied Amtrak to increase the Hiawatha consists up to 6 cars to handle the record levels of ridership on that train, but that was the result of the WisDOT person combing Amtrak rosters to find the last remaining "spare equipment laying around that Amtrak didn't know they still had." For there to be a second Chi-St Paul Train, it was suggested that "we get creative", even to the point of using "Metra bi-levels for this service."
In plain words, what am I attempting to say? Simply that out-mainstream-thinking ideas shouldn't be dismissed out-of-hand.
Thanks for clarifying that for this syntactically-puzzled one!!
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