Sawtooth500A question - so Amtrak is ordering new cars. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just completely refurbish the existing ones? I mean totally gut them, put in new wiring, upholstery, etc, instead of just buying new ones? My guess is that the actual structure of the car is still intact and good, it's just the interior furnishings that are really worn and need replacement. Am I correct in this logic, or am I missing something here?
You must be new in these parts. We just had this discussion and it ended in the War of the Amtrak Baggage Cars.
Just for suggesting this idea, you will find yourself at the bottom of a football "pileup" for being insufficiently earnest in your support for Amtrak by the suggestion that Amtrak can make do with used equipment (like they do in Canada -- with Amtrak's used equipment).
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
The main part of the discussion was actually in the general Trains Forum rather than here, but a link to it is http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/177210.aspx
The fight provoked by the baggage car question found its way to the "back alley outside the bar" at http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/176045.aspx
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The shell is not what cost the most, by time you rebuild trucks, rewire car, redo plumbing, renew toilet equipment, the airconditioning, the heat , the windows and all interior and exterior fittings and furnishings you may have saved 20% over new price.
but your still stuck with an old beatup leaking shell.
Unless the the shell was truly built to last indefinitely = most Budd-built classic equipment (but not all)
The shell still only accounts for less than 20% of price, nearly 45 % is labor.
If your stripping the old shell your labor cost shoots through the roof.
People calculating the price of a rebuild frequently forget to include the cost of disassembly and the fact that parts purchased after market cost more than parts used in the original build.
You can keep old equipment running and even in good shape forever ... if price is not an object. But there comes a time in it's lifespan when it's actually cheaper to sell it to someone who has an even tighter budget than you do, or to a scrap dealer, and buy a new one. Compare not only the cost of overhaul, but also consider it's salvage value.
After all, what is the better investment. Making your 10 year old car, including overhauling or replacing the engine and transmission, like new, or trading it for a new one?
The secret to success is being able to calculate when in it's service life that is. Too soon or too late is wasted money.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet to sell it to someone who has an even tighter budget than you do
to sell it to someone who has an even tighter budget than you do
(cough) Canada (cough)
Phoebe VetPeople calculating the price of a rebuild frequently forget to include the cost of disassembly and the fact that parts purchased after market cost more than parts used in the original build. You can keep old equipment running and even in good shape forever ... if price is not an object. But there comes a time in it's lifespan when it's actually cheaper to sell it to someone who has an even tighter budget than you do, or to a scrap dealer, and buy a new one. Compare not only the cost of overhaul, but also consider it's salvage value. After all, what is the better investment. Making your 10 year old car, including overhauling or replacing the engine and transmission, like new, or trading it for a new one? The secret to success is being able to calculate when in it's service life that is. Too soon or too late is wasted money.
DutchrailnutThe shell is not what cost the most, by time you rebuild trucks, rewire car, redo plumbing, renew toilet equipment, the airconditioning, the heat , the windows and all interior and exterior fittings and furnishings you may have saved 20% over new price. but your still stuck with an old beatup leaking shell.
oltmanndPhoebe Vet Not true with total rebuilds of rail cars. You don't rebuild in kind. You rebuild with new components - which are identical to those you would be buying on a new car. Under car components, seats, interior fittings for example. The parts that are unique are generally reclaimable. Trucks and carbody, for example.
Phoebe Vet
I understand and agree with everything you said except the phrase: "Not true". No part lasts forever. Everything must be replaced eventually. The older the car is, the harder it is to get parts. Eventually they cease to be available and must be custom fabricated.
Phoebe VetThe older the car is, the harder it is to get parts. Eventually they cease to be available and must be custom fabricated.
130 new Amtrak cars over 5 years, first delivery October 2012. Built in Elmira, NY by CAF-USA (Spain). Cost $298 million.
Single level cars based on the "Viewliner".
25 "Sleeping Cars", 25 "Diners", 55 "Baggage Cars", and 25 "Baggage/Crew Dormatory Cars"
Published in the "Amtrak INK" for August, statement by Joe Boardman
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Paul MilenkovicThe fight provoked by the baggage car question found its way to the "back alley outside the bar" at http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/176045.aspx
Johnny
This post is directed to not only our regular posters but the staff of Trains Mag.
1. The single level car speeds listed at various sites have several top speed differences. The original notice of the new single cars order stated permitted speed of 125 MPH.
2. October issue of trainstMag states new cars 110 MPH top speed. What is it really?
3. The Amtrak fleet strategy plan stated present viewliners top speed 110 MPH.
4. All new single level equipment built befor Viewliners is stated as 125 MPH. (Horizon, Amfleet 1 & Amfleet 2s)
5. Fleet plan lists Heritage Cars as 110 MPH for 14 -- 1700 series cars.
6. However plan lists a total of 90 Heritage cars including diners.
7. Boardman's statement said Heritage cars were 90 MPH.
8. October trains Mag lists Heritage cars as 90 MPH.
9. I suspec that there are different actual speed limits for each of the Heriutage cars.
10 What gives?? How about Trains clearing up this confusion by going to their sources at Amtrak??????
So are these the schematics for the new Amtrak Passenger Cars. The drawings of the single level car specs do not look like viewliners to me. Does that mean the viewliners are a seperate order? Or does that mean these single level cars are the next generation spec? Does anyone know?
http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Pages/DocsSpecs.aspx
The above link was embedded in a Amtrak news release located here:
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobkey=id&blobwhere=1249214184634&blobheader=application%2Fpdf&blobhead
Just curious on this.
Dutchrailnut The shell is not what cost the most, by time you rebuild trucks, rewire car, redo plumbing, renew toilet equipment, the airconditioning, the heat , the windows and all interior and exterior fittings and furnishings you may have saved 20% over new price. but your still stuck with an old beatup leaking shell.
Some news items:
VIA is rebuilding their LRC coaches for about $1M each. They are aluminum frame cars that need some structural repair. Rebuild should extend life 20 years. This is about 1/2 the cost of new.
PATCO has been planning on rebuilding it's 40+ year old Budd stainless steel transit cars, retrofitting with AC propulsion for approx. $1.2M each versus $2.2 for new cars.
Let's carry the discussion into our garages.....
You have a fleet of 1980's (or earlier) Chevy Impala's....200K miles a year for the past 30 years.
Would you rather jack up the ash tray and rebuild the vehicles or go to a fleet of 2010 vehicles that come will all the latest designs and technology....technology that doesn't have to be re-engineered to fit the 30 year old shells.
You pays your money any you takes your choices.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Let's carry the discussion into our garages..... You have a fleet of 1980's (or earlier) Chevy Impala's....200K miles a year for the past 30 years. Would you rather jack up the ash tray and rebuild the vehicles or go to a fleet of 2010 vehicles that come will all the latest designs and technology....technology that doesn't have to be re-engineered to fit the 30 year old shells. You pays your money any you takes your choices.
Interesting analogy! Having some time back (just graduated High School '61) rebuilt a 1927 Autocar model 27H Flatbed Truck I have a slight understanding of where you are coming from.
A couple of questions seem to be unanswered;
What is the expected service life for these new Amtrak cars?
Is there anyway to predict or validate how many rebuilds might be made in their service life?
The BUDD- built, and PULLMAN- built cars seem to be able to soldier on after many cycles of rebuilding to survive somewhere around 60/70 or more years of service in various uses. Some cars probablyhave lasted much longer as well.
The Shops at Bear and Beech Grove have worked miracles with the current fleet, repairing, rebuilding and essentially remanufacturing from wrecks many cars to keep AMTRAK's fleet of aging cars running.
Let's hope these new generations of cars will preform similarly after they have been battered, brusied and beaten in AMTRAK service.
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