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[quote user="al-in-chgo"] Re:  "The fact that rail travel experienced an upsurge in personal and business train travel following the introduction of TGV service tells us nothing about the incomes or class of the riders."  What are you saying?  As early as the early Eighties SNCF had a program called "la democratisation de Vitesse" (the democratization of Speed) during which luxury, first-class-only trains, were opened up to second-class seating and riders as well.  When TGV was new it was extra-fare, first class only.  This became over time a public issue when the "new" wore off the technological miracle of super-fast passenger trains and the French gov't (or at least SNCF, which is government-owned) realized there was a tension between offering a brand-new, high-tech service in which there was room only for the elite (1st class passengers); and the mass democracy of the public on the other hand, that wanted its democratizaztion of speed on TGV and thought it only fair, as fellow members of the taxpaying public, to be included in the new trains.  SNCF may not have inquired about the income or class background of its TGV riders when they bought their tickets, but it did bow to public will and start offering second-class seating on the TGV a few years ago.  Upshot?  The original TGV route now has double-decker trains which carry many more people -- in first and second class both.  I must remark that I never heard of any French people whining about how there wasn't enough money, or that equipping the world's fastest trains as bi-levs was so technologically improbable as to be impossible, or that French technology just didn't run that way, or that the French people didn't  really  like trains all that much.  I realize it makes a big difference that France, while large, is not huge and Continental (it's about the size of Texas actually), and that private rates of car-ownership are much lower than here in the USA (and Canada).  The country has an excellent system of superhighways, too, some of which started out as toll roads (again, the elite) but trickled down to all car-drivers when the roads were paid for and became free of charge to use. So, yes, SNCF and Amtrak can draw some pretty good inferences about who is riding their trains by keeping credit-card data, especially when correlated with surveys. They'll know if somone's VISA was American or Japanese or German or French.  And FWIW Japan National Railways offered its original bullet train (1964)  with both first- and second-class seating and to my knowledge has never offered any daylight high-speed trains without both kinds of seating.  -   a.s. [/quote] The post that I referred to did not tell me anything about the class of people who ride the TGV.  It did not tell me who makes up the personal class; it did not tell me who makes up the business class; it did not tell me how much they pay; it did not give me any hard data.  Neither did O'Toole.  You can take his comment for what it is worth.  I do, however, from fare data and experience have a pretty good idea of who rides the Acela, which at the end of the day is the most important insight for me. Is second class service on the TGV akin to business class on Acela?  How much does it cost?  Who uses it?  You have not provided any hard data about the fare structure. I am pleased that the French are happy with their TGV, although I don't know what percentage of the population uses it, which would be a better indication of their happiness.  Having reviewed the SNCF financial reports, I know that the system requires a very large subsidy from the French Government.  You can find the numbers in the annual financial report, although they are a tad difficult to dig out. I don't care whether the French are happy with the TGV or the Japanese are happy with their bullet trains.  I am interested in what is the best solution for the United States, which by the way staged a little revolution a couple of hundred plus years ago to distance itself from the Europeans.  I am concerned with what will work best for the U.S.  And how to pay for it.
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