HarveyK400Well, you got a hat for your effort. I generally don't wear the things - makes you grow bald.Seriously, any extension to either Houston or Austin and San Antonio would need a three hour reduction in time for the 603 miles between Kansas City and Fort Worth. Based on a former Lone Star 12:20 hour schedule that averaged 49 mph, taking out 2:30 hours would result in a more respectable 61 mph average and facilitate an arrival before midnight at Kansas City and Houston. The point isn't to focus on Kansas City-Houston, few would go the entire distance. Rather, the ridership from Kansas to Oklahoma and Fort Worth would overlap ridership from Oklahoma to Houston.
Well, you got a hat for your effort. I generally don't wear the things - makes you grow bald.
Seriously, any extension to either Houston or Austin and San Antonio would need a three hour reduction in time for the 603 miles between Kansas City and Fort Worth. Based on a former Lone Star 12:20 hour schedule that averaged 49 mph, taking out 2:30 hours would result in a more respectable 61 mph average and facilitate an arrival before midnight at Kansas City and Houston.
The point isn't to focus on Kansas City-Houston, few would go the entire distance. Rather, the ridership from Kansas to Oklahoma and Fort Worth would overlap ridership from Oklahoma to Houston.
Another way of looking at it is that a corridor, take OKY-FTW, can have a lot of overlapping travel. This also is true with NEC service extending into Virginia and as far as Florida and New Orleans.
Yeah I suppose that's another good way of looking at it, and well I just hope something does get done since I think this is a route that could so much potential with overlapping travel like you mentioned and connecting services and it has to have been at least since 2006 that I've heard they want to connect Oklahoma City with Kansas City and I've yet to hear anyone complain about it so I think most people could agree that this would be a good idea.
Farther down the road, service from Tulsa to Houston would be a nice addition to the Heartland Corridor.
Tilting equipment and Illinois' 110 mph running might make a daytime Chicago-St Louis-Tulsa-Oklahoma City train feasible. Not exactly the Heartland; but it would offer a second round trip between Tulsa and Oklahoma City.
It has been a while since I posted on this board. I would like to share some information about the campaign to return passenger rail service between Kansas City and Fort Worth.
I serve on the board of the Northern Flyer Alliance.
The NFA began as a grass routes advocacy that has morphed into a community alliance involving well over 60 city councils and community organizations,located either adjacent to or along the route. The rail fan community has been largely uninvolved and uncommitted in any meaningful way in this organization.
As the Alliance grew, a concensus emerged among the business leaders and councils that their support and effort would be directed towards daytime passenger service with a preference for morning departures from Kansas City and Fort Worth. The current Heartland Flyer schedule would remain as is.
As evidence of this support the communities heavily petitioned the Governor's office and more or less harangued the department of transportation to study the route. KDOT held a meeting two years ago on March 14, 2008 to get the recommendations of stakeholders. The result was 4 route scenarios, for study purposes only. Scenario 3 is the concept described above.
The alliance also grew its individal membership. These citizens sent thousands of letters to the Governor which were passed on to the KDOT for reply. More recently, legislators began receiving letters, by the hundreds from citizens in their districts.
In an earlier message, someone mentioned movers and shakers in Wichita. Although a few board members live there, the real movers and shakers are advocats in the region. The leadership of the board operate as lobbyists, and the Alliance does in fact have a registered lobbyist in Topeka.
One of the board members developed a resolution in 2009 which passed in the senate 36-3, but was too late for action in the house. This board member drafted a formal bill (SB 409) for a passenger rail service program and had it introduced by a Kansas state senator. It received overwhelming support in committee and then on the floor. In the House it was entusiastically sent to the floor and passed 115-5 on Thursday. Being veto proof it will go to the governor and become law next Monday.
This bill and another (HR 2552) that passed in the House will make Kansas more eligibel for federal funding which it was largely not qualified to get in the intial round of the ARRA. Still, the state received enough grant money for a Service Development Plan which is a major federal funding requirement.
This week, Amtrak released its feasibility study for the corridor with cost figures for each scenario. The major capital costs involve the BNSF requirement to double track some 15% of the route. The three states involved must seek federal funding as a group in order to secure the $500 million in capital funds required.
Leaders, community organizers, DOT officials from Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas and legislators have met monthly since summer. As planning continues on this incredibly complex effort, more effort will be placed on planning and development to enable all three states a share in the Federal-State partnership grants for corridor development and state supported service.
The current structure of Amtrak with its routes and timetables may likely be modified drastically to integrate new service on a schedule that works. It is a work in progress. The feasibility study schedules are by no means written in stone. They were proposed for study and cost analysis only.
Scenario 3 is what seemed most reasonable to me.
This would lay the groundwork for a Wichita - Topeka - Jefferson City - Springfield (IL) - Chicago or Wichita - Topeka - Des Moines - Saint Paul train, each reaching three state capitols. Either would provide additional connections for the Southwest Limited; the latter would connect with the Empire Builder; and both save a day's travel.
State legislation for this service is encouraging news.
Those connections were one of the selling/arguing/lobbying points we offerred in our presentations during hearings. The opportunity to rail connect the following state capitals, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Jefferson City and Springfield made an impression on some legislators.
PrairietypeThose connections were one of the selling/arguing/lobbying points we offerred in our presentations during hearings. The opportunity to rail connect the following state capitals, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Jefferson City and Springfield made an impression on some legislators.
Dang! Thought I was the only genius. Needless to say you seem to be on the right track.
Interesting Study on this, just read it today.......check it out:
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=22768
CMStPnP Interesting Study on this, just read it today.......check it out: http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=22768 Activated
Activated
blue streak 1CMStPnP Interesting Study on this, just read it today.......check it out: http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=22768 Activated
Actually, this is the same information as posted on Trains Newswire that I carried further.
TOPEKA, Kan. - Gov. Mark Parkinson has signed legislation moving Kansas a step closer toward expanding passenger rail service.
The bill signed Wednesday enacts the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Compact and establishes the passenger rail service program in Kansas.
Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are working with federal officials to expand Amtrak service between Kansas City, Mo., and Fort Worth. A study released earlier this month by the Kansas Department of Transportation proposed four potential routes through Kansas.
Parkinson said the bill was needed to help attract federal money to establish the line, including the purchase of equipment and building new track.
ruta66Gov. signs bill to add Kansas to rail compact Comments (0) Recommend (0) The Associated Press TOPEKA, Kan. - Gov. Mark Parkinson has signed legislation moving Kansas a step closer toward expanding passenger rail service. The bill signed Wednesday enacts the Midwest Interstate Passenger Rail Compact and establishes the passenger rail service program in Kansas. Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are working with federal officials to expand Amtrak service between Kansas City, Mo., and Fort Worth. A study released earlier this month by the Kansas Department of Transportation proposed four potential routes through Kansas. Parkinson said the bill was needed to help attract federal money to establish the line, including the purchase of equipment and building new track.Read more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/24/1240008/gov-signs-bill-to-add-kansas-to.html#ixzz0jVQv8uKV
This is good news; and I wrote a comment to the Wichita Eagle.
HarveyK400ead more: http://www.kansas.com/2010/03/24/1240008/gov-signs-bill-to-add-kansas-to.h
yes and hopefully now we will soon be able to see passenger service available to Kansas
Prairietype Those connections were one of the selling/arguing/lobbying points we offerred in our presentations during hearings. The opportunity to rail connect the following state capitals, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Jefferson City and Springfield made an impression on some legislators.
Apparently, the project is ginning up interest: linked her is a Progressive Railroading. com piece:
and from a few days earlier a B.L.E.T. piece: http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=29567
I guess this would be analogous, and paraphrasing the saying about Justice " The wheels grind exceedingly fine , and slow!" But at least it seams there is movement. MAYBE, Someday we can ride a train around here.
samfp1943Those connections were one of the selling/arguing/lobbying points we offerred in our presentations during hearings. The opportunity to rail connect the following state capitals, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Jefferson City and Springfield made an impression on some legislators.
SAMFP: I hate to take up your time but do you have a web site for the complete Amtrak study? I read it somewhere but have been unable to find it again and am researching all the PRIIA proposals for a future thread. The Amtrak web site does not appear to now have it?
blue streak 1 samfp1943Those connections were one of the selling/arguing/lobbying points we offerred in our presentations during hearings. The opportunity to rail connect the following state capitals, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Jefferson City and Springfield made an impression on some legislators. SAMFP: I hate to take up your time but do you have a web site for the complete Amtrak study? I read it somewhere but have been unable to find it again and am researching all the PRIIA proposals for a future thread. The Amtrak web site does not appear to now have it?
Blue Streak1:
Here is a link to the KDOT requested study for service in Kansas ( AKA: 'Northern Flyer')
http://www.ksdot.org/PDF_Files/FINAL-Amtrak-Study.pdf
Hope this help, if not let me know and I'll see what else I can find.
Here is a link to a piece from Mar.12,2010 referencing the Kansas House's vote on the funding:
http://kansasreporter.org/58991.aspx
samfp1943 http://www.ksdot.org/PDF_Files/FINAL-Amtrak-Study.pdf
Thanks: That is the one. Muchus Gracis
The Wichita Eagle reports that after a public meeting recently, the decision to move ahead with TWO alternative routings, and schedules. This will be the thrust of their continuing effort to move the Northern Flyer/North Flyer passenger service through the Wichita area.
Linked is the website for the North Flyer.org : http://www.northflyer.org/
The website contains the schedules, and routing for the two chosen alternatives and a couple of others which were also considered.
The tow best alternatives seem to be a route that would arive from Ft. Worth,Tx in Newton,KS. about the time of the current service arrival for AMTRAK in the early morning hours (after midnight).
The second consideration would be Okla.City thru Newton, and terminate in Kansas City during daylight hours.
Apparently, KDOT has engaged the firm of Parsons, Brinkerhoff to study and come up with the Final Candidate for the AMTRAK service. They are expected to render a decision by the Fall of 2011.
Seems as I stated early in this topic's Threads that the pace is that of a snail, but it is moving, even at a GLACIAL pace.
Since there is much of this story on this Thread from the last couple of years.
I have elected to continue on with the latest information on the Proposed Northern Flyer extention into Kansas.
ON this date 12-05-2011 Progressive Railroading magazines on-line website carries the following: "Kansas DOT releases passenger-rail service development plan"
Entire story on the following linked item: http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Kansas-DOT-releases-passengerrail-service-development-plan--29070
FTA:'...The plan explores two options for expanded rail service: a night service between Newton, Kan., and Fort Worth, at an estimated cost of $87.5 million for infrastructure improvements; or a daytime service between Kansas City and Fort Worth at an estimated cost of $245.5 million.The annual operating subsidy to be shared by participated states for the night service would be $4.4 million; the daytime service’s operating subsidy would be $10 million, KDOT officials said..."
Here is an active link to the website of the NorthFlyer.org website: http://www.northflyer.org/
It offers a pretty good resource for following the rail happenings out here in Fly-over Country.
Note: As well :the NorthFlyer website is a resource that posts maps of the proposed regional systems (as well as HSR) Route OKC to Tulsa. and the Passenger rails sites for Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas, and legislative events.
EDIT to add information:
Link to story in Wichita Eagle
http://www.kansas.com/2011/12/01/2124207/study-amtrak-service-from-kansas.html
"Study: Amtrak service from Kansas City to Texas would take a long time, cost a lot"By BRENT D. WISTROM Eagle Topeka bureau Pub 12/01/2011
[ Might be safe to add that according to various media sources in area, Gov. Sam Brownback of Kansas has been reported against any improvements or changes in AMTRAK service here in Kansas. samfp1943]
Sam1 .... The current top speed on the TRE is 60 mph. Whether the double tracking will permit higher speeds is problematic. There are seven regular stations between Dallas Union Station and Fort Worth T&P Station or an average of one station every 4.7 miles. As long as the trains serve each of those stations, which is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future, the TRE may be looking to step up the speed somewhat, but having to stop and start every 4.7 miles does not lend it self to high speed running.
....
The current top speed on the TRE is 60 mph. Whether the double tracking will permit higher speeds is problematic. There are seven regular stations between Dallas Union Station and Fort Worth T&P Station or an average of one station every 4.7 miles. As long as the trains serve each of those stations, which is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future, the TRE may be looking to step up the speed somewhat, but having to stop and start every 4.7 miles does not lend it self to high speed running.
The light TRE trains should be able to reach 70 mph in 2 miles and 79 mph in about 3 miles. This is somewhat slower than Amtrak. TRE may reach 60 mph from start to stop in a mile between closer stations.
Would appreciable fuel be saved by cruising at a lower speed between stations? Would the speed, or lack of it, affect riders' perception of the service?
What restrictive curvature is encountered along the route that may limit the practical top speed? Could restrictive curves be eased with realignment or increased cant and spirals within the row?
samfp1943 Since there is much of this story on this Thread from the last couple of years. I have elected to continue on with the latest information on the Proposed Northern Flyer extention into Kansas. ON this date 12-05-2011 Progressive Railroading magazines on-line website carries the following: "Kansas DOT releases passenger-rail service development plan" Entire story on the following linked item: http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/news/Kansas-DOT-releases-passengerrail-service-development-plan--29070 FTA:'...The plan explores two options for expanded rail service: a night service between Newton, Kan., and Fort Worth, at an estimated cost of $87.5 million for infrastructure improvements; or a daytime service between Kansas City and Fort Worth at an estimated cost of $245.5 million.The annual operating subsidy to be shared by participated states for the night service would be $4.4 million; the daytime service’s operating subsidy would be $10 million, KDOT officials said..." Here is an active link to the website of the NorthFlyer.org website: http://www.northflyer.org/ It offers a pretty good resource for following the rail happenings out here in Fly-over Country. Note: As well :the NorthFlyer website is a resource that posts maps of the proposed regional systems (as well as HSR) Route OKC to Tulsa. and the Passenger rails sites for Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas, and legislative events. EDIT to add information: Link to story in Wichita Eagle http://www.kansas.com/2011/12/01/2124207/study-amtrak-service-from-kansas.html "Study: Amtrak service from Kansas City to Texas would take a long time, cost a lot"By BRENT D. WISTROM Eagle Topeka bureau Pub 12/01/2011 [ Might be safe to add that according to various media sources in area, Gov. Sam Brownback of Kansas has been reported against any improvements or changes in AMTRAK service here in Kansas. samfp1943]
HarveyK400 wrote:
Sam reminded me that a separate daylight train is needed "east" of Newton.
The following is information that was posted today on one of the TV Station in Houston regarding the Heartland Extension.
http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Texas-on-track-for-passenger-rail-expansion-135651403.html
Krum is a hamlet about 5 miles northwest of Denton, TX that might be a decent location for a north suburban stop for Fort Worth. This would save travel time not going all the way downtown and closer than Gainesville.
A Krum park & ride station would be a much better used facility if a second round trip is chosen rather than an overnight connection from Newton, KS as an extension of the current single round trip.
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