The Cardinal is primarily a Washington-Chicago train but motive power for the through cars would be changed in Washington. On the other hand, the Pennsylvanian changes power in Philadelphia, even though the electrified trackage extends to Harrisburg.
Usually and virtually all power on the Corridor is electric. Empire Corridor trains either have dual locomotives or are changed at Renssalear
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
It just depends. At times when there was a shortage of electric motors AMTRAK changed all trains that O & D south of WASH and the Pennsylvanian, Braoadway, Keystone trains at PHL saving about 7 - 8 motors. Also when the New Haven - BOS CAT was finished for a time some trains continued to go diesel northeast of New Haven until all motors were operational. Remember the problems with the E-60s and HHP-8s that sideline them many days causing a very low availability.
Henry, what's the power change at Renssalear? Is it to dual-use locomotives?
Does Amtrak ever change at Croton-Harmon like Metro-North does?
It is illegal to operate a diesel locomotive in NYC, so even if one were to be on a train in NYP, it would have to be towed by an electric loco.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
I am quite certain that Amtrak does not use Croten Harmon for power change. And will put the dual modes on at Rensselear to go east (south). I don't believe they use the duals west of Rensselear, but I may be wrong.
henry6 I am quite certain that Amtrak does not use Croten Harmon for power change. And will put the dual modes on at Rensselear to go east (south). I don't believe they use the duals west of Rensselear, but I may be wrong.
Johnny
Hi, Dual mode locos do go to Vermont on the Ethan Allen Express and the Vermonter. I don't know if they go to Montreal on the Adirondack. The Lake Shore changes power at Albany-Rensselear. Amtrak does not change power at Croton. As for diesel locomotives not being allowed to operate in NY City, that may be the law, but....
I hear that Empire Connection trains use diesel in the tunnel there, since it is also equipped for ventilation.
Still a fascinating topic!!
Amtrak trains #48/49 ("Lake Shore Limited") change power at ALB where the train is split-joined. Eastbound, #48 receives a Dual-mode P32DM(s). The thru-loco(s) carry the Boston section (#448) eastward. I really don't know how far, beyond ALB the DMs might go.
Commuting on the New Haven, "back in the days..." ('65-'68), the FL-9s were in charge, unless you were luck and got a train with an EP-5 "Jet". The "no Diesel" rule, in the Park Avenue Tunnel, was blatantly ignored. If a FL-9 had its 3d-rail shoes clipped off, for various reasons (mostly "operator headspace"), it would have to run on Diesel to GCT. I think most of this was "operator laziness", especially on departing (from GCT) trains, as the shoes would have been replaced on the RIP track. It was the engineer's responsibility to raise, and lower, the pneumatically-operated third-rail shoes at the NYC boundaries. I never heard of an un-raised/un-lowered pantograph being clipped off at Woodlawn, NY. If so, the crew would REALLY have to report to their management!
Dunno what the limits on the "West Side Line" are, but I imagine that the BLET crews do what is "easiest". Take that, Bloomberg! Check it out! Another $1,200,000 ought to work!
Hays
The FL9 diesel into GCT was as much a Metro North problem as an Amtrak problem and it was solved once maintenance of both track and power was up to snuff. For a while, P-motors were put back into service, engines changed again both at Croton-Harmon and at "my station" North White Plains, on occasion. I have NEVER heard of any Amtrak train running into Penn Station on diesel power. Ever! The dual power feature is used always.
I remember a time in April 1968 taking a New Haven train from Springfield, MA to NY headed by the FL9's. I swear the diesel engine was still gurgling strong within the confines of Pennsylvania Station.
The NYC tunnel where diesels are run is the one under Riverside Park sometimes known as the "Freedom Tunnel," now call the "Empire Connection." Only the new, short tunnel that was built in the 1990s that runs from this tunnel under the Javits Center to Penn Station is electrified at all. The Riverside Park tunnel already had adequate ventilation when it was built in the 1930s and was abandoned for several decades before being cleaned up and re-activated for Empire Service from Penn Station.
My 2 cents worth. Somewhere I saw a pic of an Amtrak FL-9 in Toronto. (in the 1990's I think probably earlier)
Rgds IGN
Amtrak's GE P32DMs (Dual-Modes) run from ALB (Albany-Rensselaer) and beyond, to NYP (New York Penn Station). Metro-North's P32DMs run from Poughkeepsie to NYG (Grand Central Terminal). They both change to straight electric operation at CRT (Croton-Harmon). Amtrakers can run into NYG if necessary. The "Riverside Tunnel" is not actually a tunnel, but a semi-roofed over part of the line, all with third-rail electrification: CRT-NYP. Of course, the GEs are more reliable than the old EMD FL-9s and don't need to run on Diesel in the city.
BTW, Diesel operation is not banned in New York City, only in the confines of the real tunnels in Manhattan, if even there. The original ban was against steam locomotives. CPR, CSX, P&W, NYA, LIRR, etc. all run Diesels in the "city". The "city" is a big place, consisting of five counties/boroughs. Never heard of anyone getting a ticket for running on Diesel in the confines. One of the last-ditch efforts of the New York Central was to tie a couple of Upper Harlem RDCs to the tail of an express from Brewster to GCT. They idled all the way from Brewster and were usually towed out, as a new train, via a loop track to cut down on dwell time in GCT.
I think what BNSFwatcher says makes sense. Steam was banned but not really diesels. If so, there would be no trucks or buses. Railroads, especially passenger railroad lines, were already electrified when diesels finally came along in force so the roads saw no reason to bail out of electricity. In the long run it has been a good move for them and the city environment..
BNSFwatcherThey both change to straight electric operation at CRT (Croton-Harmon).
If you stand on the platform at Yonkers I think you'll find the Metro-North engine-hauled trains are all running in diesel too.
I don't think that even the FL9's ran as electrics as soon as they reached the third rail. Based on what I've read, even when they were new they operated under diesel power until around 125th Street.
Sorry but when I watch all the tunnel videos for Freedom Tunnel (and Riverside) they do not show any third rail or catenary even in the skinny sections. Furthermore the engines sure sound and look like they are running on diesel in those videos. While at Croton-Harmon waiting for my Metro-North ride I watched several Amtrak diesels chugging right up and down the line in diesel. A much earlier discussion on these forums also said that Amtrak runs diesel at the earliest opportunity to save money. I'd like to see some more pictures of the Freedom Tunnel (I have seen hundreds) but I cannot see any kind of electric traction system on them.
The Penn Station tunnel's third-rail is over-running, but the NYC third-rail from Croton-Harmon is under-running, so Amtrak runs in diesel mode straight down to around 50th street where the Penn Station electrification starts.
Some of this can be observed by some unusual moves:
Note this unusual move of Amtrak on NYC track detouring from the Empire Connection. Note the power used on the return trip at 1:45 of the first video. Very interesting stuff. The railfans call them "tow jobs."
Tow-job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zq4CXRfWB8
More tow-jobs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzxFt5OFgoY
Here is another video of an AMTK train at GCT with some explanation of the third-rail issue with Amtrak in the description:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYnIi82A80
From a video comment: "Besides the over-running shoes that Amtrak's P32AC-DM's have, their locomotives also do not have an escape hatch in the nose of their units, so to go into GCT, They needed to tack one (or two)of our P32AC-DM's on the head end and their unit(s) are then completely shut down.
Hope this helps.
Unfortunately, 2000-miles from "Gotham", I have a dial-up ISP. It takes a while to download a "YouTube" thingie, but I will, at earliest convenience. I, usually, do that while taking care of my morning abloutions! I was under the impression that all P32AC-DMs had a combination over- and under-running retractable, sprung third-rail shoe, and could operate on ex-NYC or ex-PRR or LIRR third-rail. Where did this "Freedom Tunnel" sobrequiet come from? Never heard it before. What's the deal with the front door "escape hatch"? I don't remember the New Haven EP-5 "Jets", or the "Dan'l Webster", or the "Roger Williams" having them, all operating in GCT. More later, I'm sure.
A previous comment on the NH FL-9s running on Diesel, as soon as they were out of the tunnel, strikes me as strange. They were prob'ly on Diesel all the way from GCT, especially if the third-rail shoes got clipped off, due to inattention of the locomotive crew at Woodlawn on the in-bound trip. NYC would charge them for the electricity, even if they ran in and out on Diesel.
The Amtrak units can electrically use the third rail but not physically.
The videos aren't as important as the comments from the people working on the railroad.
I also found a detailed discussion later on here: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2003483
The "Freedom Tunnel" is a local name for the tunnel that comes from a graffiti artist who did most of the large artwork on the tunnel walls. This tunnel set unused for decades until 1991 and it was also where the so-called "mole people" lived in NYC. There was a big story about their eviction when Amtrak re-activated the tunnel, and more stories about controlling pedestrian access to the tunnel because people still get hit by trains in the tunnel to this day.
More here but it's not that interesting for railfans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Tunnel
Regarding an FL-9 still "gurgling" while at Penn Station in 1968, it was probably idling all the way in from Harold Tower. Usually engine crews did not actually shut down the engine completely when using third rail power but simple had the engine idle, with very little smoke as a result, also at GCT. This avoided start-up problems on the outbound moveI don't know what the practice is on today's LIRR, Amtrak, and Metro North dual power, and would be interested in learning. In 1968, and FL-9 would run through to Penn Station only if an EP-5 was not available. I assume the FL-9 lashup was a pair, not just one, because of the grades to an from the Hell Gate Bridge and the lack of a place to turn at Penn. If you only saw one FL-9 on the head of your train, it may have been pulled into Penn by an electric of one sort or another (even possibly an ex-Virginian?) which had cut-off before you saw the locomotive, and this must have represented a real emergency! If the train had stopped at Harold Tower, it may have been to add PRR power.
No, it was a pair...the same pair all the way from Springfield. I saw them in the west yard at NYP a few minutes later as the train received its GG1 and new passengers enroute to Philadelphia and Washington. This train was the remnant of the Montrealer which up to about 5 or 6 years earlier would have originated in the named Canadian city and would have exchanged B&M power for NH at Springfield.
BTW...coming back from Philadelphia later that day on the Patriot, traded GG1 for EP44 I think at NYP and thought the NH provided a smoother ride than PRR had up to that point.
I think you meant EP-5, the "Jets", but perhaps at one time they were labeld EP-44 for their 4400 HP. That would be the normal power. And I believe my explanation about why you heard the "gurgle" is correct. I heard the gurgle many times at GCT as well and got the explanaition I gave you at that time. Later, of course, around 1971-1972, they started actually running on diesel into GCT and from GCT. A court order brought on by the Waldorf's attourney (really Restaurant Associate's Attourny, my cousin Lester Klepper, rest in peace) stopped this practice because the fumes were leaking into the Waldorf's restaurant. By that time, under PC, GG-1's were handling all the passenger traffic between NY-Penn and New Haven, with most through trains no longer changing engines at Penn. The Turbo train was an exception, of course. And only a very few trains through to Springfield were left, replaced by shuttles to and from New Haven. There was a mass migration of FL-9's to what became Metro North territory to eliminate engine changes at White Plains and Croton-Harmon, with E-7's and E-8's running north and east of New Haven, Pennsy and Central power mixed.
Back in the real fun days of watching trains!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.