How Amtrak Operates on Railroads

[Sawtooth500]

A few questions:

1. When Amtrak operates on a freight railroad, do they pay what I guess would be the "going" rates for trackage rights, like the same price that another freight railroad would pay? Or do they get a discount because they are Amtrak?

2. If Amtrak wants to establish a new route, can they pretty much pick any track they want? If the freight railroad doesn't want Amtrak there, does the DOT just force the freight railroad to accept Amtrak?

3. Are the freight railroads generally pretty cooperative with Amtrak, or is Amtrak the unwelcome guest?

[Railway Man]

Sawtooth500

A few questions:

1. When Amtrak operates on a freight railroad, do they pay what I guess would be the "going" rates for trackage rights, like the same price that another freight railroad would pay? Or do they get a discount because they are Amtrak?

If it is a 1971 agreement route, Amtrak pays a rate that is a tiny fraction of what freight pays for the track slot.  If it is a post-1971 agreement route, Amtrak pays what it and the host railroad negotiates.

2. If Amtrak wants to establish a new route, can they pretty much pick any track they want? If the freight railroad doesn't want Amtrak there, does the DOT just force the freight railroad to accept Amtrak?

They can pick whatever they want, but the terms and conditions for access are subject to negotiation with the host railroad.  Terms and conditions will usually include making the host railroad whole for all costs of hosting Amtrak service, both present and future.

3. Are the freight railroads generally pretty cooperative with Amtrak, or is Amtrak the unwelcome guest?

 

Highly cooperative.  But I guess it's how you define "cooperative."  To some people, "cooperative" means "give me everything you have and I pay you nothing."

RWM

[Sawtooth500]

So what does Amtrak pay if it's restoring a route that existed pre-1971 but no longer exists today?

[CG9602]

I suspect that if it with a 1971 Agreement railroad, it would be subject to whatever is in RPSA 1970 (the Act and laws which created Amtrak and allowed the private RR's to exit the passenger side of the railroad business). Other than that, such information is probably considered proprietary and confidential. You would have to file a Freedom Of Information request in order to even have a chance to see such information.

[ecoli]

Railway Man

Sawtooth500

A few questions:

3. Are the freight railroads generally pretty cooperative with Amtrak, or is Amtrak the unwelcome guest?

 

Highly cooperative.  But I guess it's how you define "cooperative."  To some people, "cooperative" means "give me everything you have and I pay you nothing."

RWM

 

That answer ("highly cooperative") is absurd.

Imagine that you go to a banker to get a loan for your small business and he refuses on the grounds that  he has lost so much money on subprime mortgages that he isn't taking new loan applications at all right now. Would you say the banker is being "highly cooperative"? I think you might say that the banker is being prudent, or that he is looking out for the best interests of his stockholders, but not that he's being "highly cooperative" with you.

The economic interests of freight railroads often conflict with passenger service, and when that happens, the freight railroads often do not cooperate with Amtrak or other passenger operators beyond what is required by law. Arguably, they have sometimes pushed the envelope of the law.

Here's a government document discussing delays of Amtrak by freight railroad dispatchers. Notice particularly the graph showing that the problem is much worse for some railroads than others (Union Pacific is consistently the worst over the course of several years):

Amtrak Delays

Here are two news articles describing how Union Pacific cannot afford improvements to its transcontinental line through the southwest, at the same that it has rejected government financing (and the passenger-related strings that would be attached to that money) for its line over Donner pass:

Arizona Improvements Delayed

Donner Improvements Completed

Here is an article describing a breach of contract alleged by Los Angeles Metrolink against Union Pacific. Note that Metrolink contributed a large sum of money to UP infrastructure improvements, so "give me everything you have and I pay nothing" is not a fair description:

Metrolink Delays

Here's a Trains magazine newswire article citing US Department of Transportation on the subject of freight delays to Amtrak:

DOT on Delays

One can argue about whether the freight railroads are justified when they do not cooperate with Amtrak and other passenger operators, but it's silly to say that they are always cooperative.

[AntonioFP45]

 It is most interesting how the relationships between Amtrak and some of the Class 1 railroads have changed as well.

On the U.S east coast:  

In the early 1970s, Amtrak and the Seaboard Coast Line, reportedly, had an excellent working relationship. (Unlike Amtrak and the Penn Central )).  

SCL crews and dispatchers made efforts to run Amtrak schedules on posted times (although it proved difficult with the number of breakdowns ocurring from million-mile plus E-units). A good number of the train crews, dispatchers, and managers had worked or interacted with the pre-Amtrak passenger service, so hence there was still a sense of pride and loyalty.  Based on past stats, Amtrak Silver Service runs, with reliable equipment and scheduling, reached their peak from the early to mid 1980s over SCL (later Seaboard System) rails.

Fast forward into the mid1990s.  The "tolerant two" Prime Osborn and Hays Watkins, are gone and members of CSX's brass let it be known that if it were possible, they would eliminate every last trace of passenger service on its system.  Basically the "Lou Menk" hard line attitude on logistics.  A complete 180 degree turn from just some years earlier. There was also a significant decrease in tourist and excursion runs on CSX rails, although trains like the annual "Santa Claus Special" and Operation Life Saver still ran.

Yes the issues of liability were and still are at the forefront, but ironically CSX's competitor, Norfolk Southern, had a reportedly "decent" relationship with Amtrak and a commuter agency.  NS has even allowed a significant number of excursions over its system (of course after liability issues and system use cost issues were resolved).  .  

Can't remember the exact date, but some of you remember the big winter storm a few years back in which CSX cancelled nearly all passenger service in the affected area, yet NS allowed passenger service in its nearby territory to continue running without breaking a sweat?  

I realize I'm oversimplifying, but the point is that even with the liability, maintenance, and investment return issues it is the leadership that determines the type and tone of relationship it will have with Amtrak. 

Amtrak is no sweet child either. There have been TRAINS magazines articles and editorial writeups in the past that have highlighted the arrogant attitude of some past Amtrak management members. Intelligent, well educated, overpaid bueracrats with zero railroading experience (freight, commuter, or passenger) did not help matters much either.   Hopefully that scenario has changed for the better.