I thought the idea of Wisconsin ordering/building "Talgos" was to, eventually, provide service to Madison. Looking at my maps, I don't think the routes, from CHI to MSN, via Janesville, or the round-about CHI-MKE-MSN are straight shots. They look pretty "curvey" to me. Then, again, politicians are involved...
Bill
schlimmHarveyK400Why not buy more Acelas to re-equip other NEC and Southeast trains out of New York? Chicago-Milwaukee could use more trains than just the two Talgos that were ordered. HarveyK400: Do you know why Talgos were ordered for the flat, straight CHI-MIL service? Was nothing else available?
HarveyK400Why not buy more Acelas to re-equip other NEC and Southeast trains out of New York? Chicago-Milwaukee could use more trains than just the two Talgos that were ordered.
HarveyK400: Do you know why Talgos were ordered for the flat, straight CHI-MIL service? Was nothing else available?
No, I do not know why.
However, I did have the track charts at one time. There are occasional 1-deg curves to limit speed for conventional trains to 80 mph, including one 20-mile stretch between Gurnee, IL and Pleasant Prairie, WI. Furthermore, there is the CN (xEJ&E) crossing at Rondout. With 1.5" SE balanced for CP general freight running at 50 mph, Intermodals can still do 65 mph (UE=-1.5"), and Talgos are good for 110 mph. The limiting factor on the Talgos, using the Cascade for the calculation, is the high center of gravity of the F59.
FWIW, there are only two public at-grade crossings at Rockland Rd/IL-176 and Atkinson Rd between Lake Forest and Gurnee, a distance of 15 miles. Think there might be a chance for 130-150 mph running with grade separation and minor curve easements?
In addition, any Hiawatha will be slowed by rush hour Metra traffic in both directions. #330 and #339 are carded for :102 and :97 minutes respectively compared to the normal :92 minute schedule. Yet it doesn't make sense or the best use of existing assets to clear a window for a train with 420 seats when it reduces the number of 980 to 1,400-seat trains that can be operated in a fixed time span.
My suggestion has been to operate combined Metra-Amtrak trains in the rush hour. Hiawathas need to make suburban stops in Illinois for travel between Wisconsin; and Metra gains capacity with service to those stations. The Talgos are inadequate at these times. What is needed are gallery cars, this is Metra, outfitted for Amtrak service with reclining seats much like the C&NW "Bi-Level 400." Unless Metra goes to a wholesale conversion, neither the Toronto or California car would be practical.
Peak schedules with extra suburban stops at Glenview (1) and Lake Forest (3) would take :107 and :105 minutes running no faster than 80 mph with a single 4,300 hp locomotive for ten cars. While as much as :27 minutes slower that a projected Talgo schedule of :82 minutes with additional regular stops at Gurnee and Kenosha-West, it saves waiting for :20 to :48 minutes and allows :12 extra minutes to catch the last of the combined trains. Talgo departures at 15:20 and 18:20 would bracket the peak. A morning schedule to Chicago would mirror the example below of possible evening service to Milwaukee.
Moving the Amtrak Glenview stop is being proposed by the Village because of the crossing blockage due to the SB Empire Builder with locomotives and baggage car leading, even if only for a couple minutes a day. While the Village wants the Amtrak stop relocated to North Glenview, Wisconsin advocates in particular have long wondered whether Lake-Cook Road and Gurnee would be more convenient to serve the latter areas.
BNSFwatcherI thought the idea of Wisconsin ordering/building "Talgos" was to, eventually, provide service to Madison. Looking at my maps, I don't think the routes, from CHI to MSN, via Janesville, or the round-about CHI-MKE-MSN are straight shots. They look pretty "curvey" to me. Then, again, politicians are involved... Bill
You're quite right, especially out of Milwaukee following the Menomonee River and then threading by numerous lakes with some sub-79 mph running. The WSOR line has a series of moderate curves through Waterloo and a more severe curve in Sun Prairie that would be problematic in addition to the other occasional curves that might be realigned more easily. The Talgos would mitigate the resulting curve speed restrictions.
Extending Hiawatha service to Madison will require an additional train for 2-hour service and four trains for hourly frequencies. Trip time may be around :220 minutes which leaves just enough time for a quick turnaround.
Talgos also would speed up service to the Twin Cities, whether by way of Red Wing or Rochester. Right now most train buffs are excited about the possible return of a "North Coast Hiawatha;" but a morning train from Moorehead by way of Rochester to Chicago and an evening return through the Twin Cities may be less costly and serve a large, and less far-flung population. Either would need additional equipment to be acquired by Amtrak or the states. Whether both trains would be possible, serving sufficiently large and largely separate markets, is another matter that would need to be studied..
As for the Twin Cities, a conventional train running ahead of the Empire Builder could get into Milwaukee in time for late-afternoon business at 2 pm; but not Chicago. A Talgo might shave about 1:11 off the current running time (est: (schedule - 79mph time)+ 110mph time) and arrive in Milwaukee for all-afternoon and Chicago for late-afternoon business.
There is little commercial need for the shortest, fastest route to Chicago from Moorehead except to arrive in the Twin Cities around 12:30pm and in Chicago before evening. A return schedule would depart the Twin Cities around 5:30pm.
A 5:30pm dp from Chicago wouldn't get back to the Twin Cities until 12:35am, even with Talgo equipment, and would be thwarted by Metra rush hour schedules. A departure after 4pm would be more ideal for Milwaukee. The latest Talgo might have to leave Chicago shortly after 3pm to avoid Metra conflicts allowing little more than an hour to prepare for the return. Combined with a Hiawatha service, competition for seats would leave little capacity for travel west of Milwaukee.
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