I should have clarified what I meant by "inflexible". When a "cab unit" was out of service, and not in the consist, the Roger Williams would have lost its aesthetic appeal. I guess they could have wyed the train at BOS or run it around a loop-track at NYG (GCT).
The name "Hot Rod" keeps coming to mind as another 'experimental' train. Guess I'll have to Google that.
I was in Sydney, NS on the last day of passenger service on the CNR in 1989 (?). A bunch of protestors chained themselves to the track and prevented the "last run" southbound. Just by chance, I was in Saint John, NB a couple of days later to witness the last RDC arrival. Sad times!
I didn't ride RDCs enough. Loved 'em. Did trips on CNR, CPR, NYC, and C&NW, I think. Never took a B&M when I was briefly stationed at Ft. Devens, MA in 1959. Missed chances elsewhere, I am sure. The WP 'Feather River' train would have been a hoot! Maybe I should jump up to Vancouver Island, BC post-haste. CRS!
Bill Hays
I failed to mention another really excellent RDC route that between Calgary and Edmonton. The service was operated by CPRail and as I recall operated two and three car trains with an RDC2 leading a pair of RDC1s. When the service was upgraded during the action red era CP speeded up the service and added airline style galleys to the baggage compartment. Service was at your seat and the stewardesses were borrowed from CPAir. They really became popular with the passengers and I always felt it was to bad the service did not last. I believe it was due to numerous accidents at grade crossings that was responsible for the service ending.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfanI failed to mention another really excellent RDC route that between Calgary and Edmonton. The service was operated by CPRail and as I recall operated two and three car trains with an RDC2 leading a pair of RDC1s. When the service was upgraded during the action red era CP speeded up the service and added airline style galleys to the baggage compartment. Service was at your seat and the stewardesses were borrowed from CPAir. They really became popular with the passengers and I always felt it was to bad the service did not last. I believe it was due to numerous accidents at grade crossings that was responsible for the service ending. Al - in - Stockton
In the latter days of operation by VIA, it was a single RDC1, two trains each way per day. The numerous grade crossing accidents certainly influenced the cancellation of the service. But all too often, I would estimate about 30% of the time, the train would be replaced by a bus because of supposed mechanical problems. If a passenger wanted to ride a bus he would have bought a bus ticket to begin with, since they also provided more frequent service. Another case of the passenger operator being its own worst enemy.
John.
Here's a photo of three of the refurbished Budd RDCs of the Trinity Railway Express in Dallas/Fort Worth commuter service.
They don't sound quite the same because the engines and transmissions are different from the originals, but that's OK with me. I still like them.
Mostly New Haven:
I did find some info on the Budd Co's. "Hot Rod". Apparently it was the 6-RDC set they sold to the New Haven, named "Roger Williams". I can't see that they sold any others. This info is from the NRHS's Phila. Chapter site. They indicate that all the intermediate units of the train were "blind" -- no controls or engineer's window. Did the NH rebuild them to normal RDC configuration?
The "Train X" (BLH?) was named the "Dan'l Webster".
The Talgo (powered by whom? Separate locomotive?) was the "John Quincy Adams".
Apparently NH did not buy an ill-fated "Aerotrain" from Gummint Motors. "Youse wanna ride a bus? Buy a bus ticket!".
Guess there were other 'experimentals' out there. The "Flying Yankee" (joint-venture with B&M) seemed to work. How many were built? One is undergoing restoration in New Hampshire.
As for the "turbos", that's another story, although CN seemed to like them.
Interesting stuff. Has anyone written a book?
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
BNSFwatcher Interesting stuff. Has anyone written a book? Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
Youse wanna book? I got yer book . . . right here!
Jason Shron (2007) Turbotrain: A Journey, Rapido Trains, Concord, Ontario.
Louis A Marre (1995) The Contemporaryt Diesel Spotter's Guide, 2nd Edition, Kalmbach, Waukesha, Wisconsin.
Jerry A Pinkepank (1973) The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, Kalmbach, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Geoffrey H Doughty (1997) New York Central and the Trains of the Future, TLC Publishing, Lynchburg, Virginia.
Turbotrain: A Journey is a chronical of the United Aircraft TurboTrain, but it has a lot of great not-seen-before pictures. It is a self-admitted fan piece about the TurboTrain (or Turbo as they called it in Canada), but reading it one gets the sense that it was heavy on maintenance. And the problems with the Turbo may not have been so much as the turbine engines, although these were adapted from helicopters and had maintenance cycles in the low hundreds of hours, I believe, but with the miriad of details that go into a train. For example, it had these tiny streetcar wheels combined with tread brakes (instead of honkin' disks as on the Acela), and this made for very short wheel life.
The Contemporary Diesel Spotters Guide has a short section on the TurboTrain -- I guess these could be confused with Diesels and the smart spotter has to know how to spot the difference. The Pinkepank Second Diesel Spotter's Guide describes the BLH locomotives used with the Dan'l Webster Train-X and the Fairbanks Morse "Speed Merchant" locomotives used with the John Quincy Adams Talgo. The BLH locomotive was an oddball with a German Maybach Diesel and hydraulic transmission; the Fairbanks Morse (FM) was more conventional in that it was Diesel electric, but on the other hand an orphan that it had the FM opposed piston (OP) engine that one had to take to top end off to get at the pistons for maintenance.
My original point about the Great RDC Race was that something reasonably well engineered for railroad use and not too exotic could maintain a fast schedule and provide a comfortable ride, and that Chicago-DC, considered an LD train, could perhaps be operated as a day train, perhaps serving "corridor" city pairs up and down the route, and do this in a fuel efficient manner. The schedule, type of equipment, and manner of service seems to be outside Amtrak's thinking (and that of some in the advocacy community who believe an LD train has to have 2 locomotives and the full complement of amenities and sleepers).
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos. The others have chapters about RDC's. There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's.
On another note. I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's! I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR. I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos. The others have chapters about RDC's. There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's. On another note. I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's! I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR. I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.
A mail order bookseller in a 1992 Trains magazine advertises, among other titles, "Budd Car: The RDC Story" by "Crouse" for $39.95. I think there was also another book published about the same time. One looked better than the other in my local hobby shop, but I neglected to buy either.
According to Ray Corley in a 1967 booklet published by the Upper Canada Railway Society, CNR re-engined RDC-2 D-204 (later 6204) with Rolls-Royce engines in September 1960, and CPR did the same with RDC-2 9194 in March 1961. The experiment was successful enough that the two retained the new engines, but as far as I know the experiment was not repeated.
John
I have traveled by rail since I was a wee bairn, almost always "Pullman"/First Class. I did commute, for a number of years, on the NYC and the NYNH&H, but the bar car made everything cool! I did make a trip, from Montana to New York on coach ("Cattle Car") a few years ago, but never again. To me, a LD train must have, at least, two locomotives (and two engineers!), a diner, maybe a lounge car, and sleepers. That is the difference between riding the rails and "Riding the Dog". I did do three (short) trips in coach in the past two months, but I'd never want to make a steady diet of it.
Amtrak "Thruway Buses" are okay. I had to catch one from LAX to BFD, connect with a real cool "San Joaquin" to MTZ, and meet the "Coast Starlight" to get home. The bus trip was enjoyable and efficient, but that doesn't excuse the Union Pacific of their total disregard for Amtrak and its connections. We sat in Tucson, on #1, while FIVE freights passed us, all going westbound ahead of us. There "is a law" and it ought to be enforced!
Bill Hays -- Mad, in Montana (at the UP).
Thanks for the info on the New Haven's FM/Talgo "Speed Merchant", a.k.a. "The John Quincy Adams". I do remember seeing it, I think, zooming thru New Rochelle. CRS! Did any other railroads try/buy it?
I have never been on a Talgo train, but might try one from Seattle, WA to Vancouver, BC shortly, with the reluctant permission of the Canadian Border Protection Services and the U. S.'s Department of Hemorrhoid Scratching. "Bureaucracy at its Finest"! Over-funded fools, methinks!!!
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT wdh@mcn.net
With the new electro-motive buses that are being tested in New York City I would hope to see more electro-motive RDC vehicles. Is the equipment really that much more space than the hydrostatic transmissions? It seems it would take less space. Furthermore, it would appear with the advances shown in the electro-motive buses that technology might have caught up with a simple and lightweight powertrain for a modern electro-motive RDC.
cx500 henry6 Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos. The others have chapters about RDC's. There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's. On another note. I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's! I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR. I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's. A mail order bookseller in a 1992 Trains magazine advertises, among other titles, "Budd Car: The RDC Story" by "Crouse" for $39.95. I think there was also another book published about the same time. One looked better than the other in my local hobby shop, but I neglected to buy either. According to Ray Corley in a 1967 booklet published by the Upper Canada Railway Society, CNR re-engined RDC-2 D-204 (later 6204) with Rolls-Royce engines in September 1960, and CPR did the same with RDC-2 9194 in March 1961. The experiment was successful enough that the two retained the new engines, but as far as I know the experiment was not repeated. John
henry6 Yeah but Sharon's book on the Turbo's is only on the Turbos. The others have chapters about RDC's. There really hasn't been, to my knowledge, a book devoted soley to the RDC's. On another note. I gave a friend of mine a proposal the Lehigh Valley received from Rolls Royce to reengine thier RDC fleet back in the late 50's! I don't know how serious the LV was about the proposal, if they solicited it, or if others were given the same proposal by RR. I got the proposal in a pile of other LV material in the mid 70's.
There are several books on the RDC. The first is Crouse's book, Another is RDC ,The Budd Rail Diesel Car, by Donald Duke& Edmund Keilty,and the third is The Amazing Journey of Santa Fe's RDC, by Ed Saalig. This book includes a very detailed account of the disasterous wreck of thes cars in Los Angeles in January 1956.
When you say "electro-motive", do you mean that as "Electro-Motive Diesel" (Canada), or just generic electrically-powered busses?
I'm sure, if they are being tested in NYC, they are a "Bloomberg Boondoggle", with a bit (on the side) for Al Sharpton, et. al. the ladrones. Wow! An RDC has a lot of roof area. Why not "solar-powered" RDCs? I'm sure our friends in Japan could convert some "Priuses" ("Priii"?) to run a RDC, all profits going to Tokyo. If a solar-powered RDC were to dwell in Grand Central Terminal or Penn Station, I'm sure ConEd would provide a neat 'tanning bed' overhead.
Now, if you wanted to get home in the winter, or at night, "Sorry Charlie"....
Hays
Neither, because you were not paying attention to my post. The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive. Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels. There are no batteries on these buses. These are laid out just like a locomotive. I saw both kinds.
I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense. I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive.
Anyone?
aegrotatio Neither, because you were not paying attention to my post. The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive. Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels. There are no batteries on these buses. These are laid out just like a locomotive. I saw both kinds. I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense. I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive. Anyone?
They have what are now called "DMUs" (Diesel multiple unit) trains in Europe and other places, and there is a variety of DMU that is a 3-unit articulated light rail car that uses a genset to power the traction motors so they don't have to string trolley wires.
As far as the hybrid bus, they use something called the "two-mode transmission", which is kind of like the Prius Hybrid Synergy Drive, only instead of using a single planetary gear set connecting an engine, an electric motor, and an electric generator, it has, I understand, two planetary gear sets to get a broader speed/torque range. Either the two-mode transmission or the Hybrid Synergy Drive is a form of electro-motive transmission (engine-generator-traction-motor), only it uses planetary gears in addition to wires to link these elements in order to get by with smaller generator and motor and by transmitting a portion of the torque mechanically.
There is probably no reason the Hybrid Synergy Drive (one planetary gear set) or the two-mode transmission (two planetary gear sets) could not be used without the battery storage to do what you want. As such, it would be an electro-mechanical transmission, in contrast with a hydraulic torque converter-gear set combination in the common type of hydro-kinetic transmission made by Voith and others, used in buses and in the CRC DMUs.
I followed the links that got posted about the Krauss-Maffei Diesel hydraulics (primarly on the SP as Rio Grande sold the few units they had to SP, who seemed to have a greater committment to getting this to work). I am not so sure if the problems with the K-M locomotives were intrinsic to Diesel hydraulic or simply a matter of putting a lot of HP in a small package and then not having it designed it for heavy-duty operations (i.e. running for hours at a time at low speeds in Run 8).
When you think about it, Europe has its version of the Donner Pass on any of a number of Alpine passes, but these are probably all electrified, and in Europe the Diesels get lighter-duty assignments.
Building a high HP Diesel locomotive for lugging trains over the Donner Pass is probably not a simple matter either for Diesel Electric or Diesel Hydraulic locomotives, and perhaps K-M didn't put as much effort into this as EMD and GE over the years. Come to think of it, the minority brands -- Baldwin-Lima, ALCo, FM -- fell by the wayside as they were never as bullet proof as the EMD offering, and GE probably stuck enough corporate resources into this until they bested EMD when EMD stumbled with the SD60.
So from a theoretical standpoint, one could probably build effective locomotives or DMU cars using either hydraulic or electric drive, and which one is successful in the marketplace probably depends on who works at this hard and long enough.
aegrotatioNeither, because you were not paying attention to my post. The buses are powered by a diesel engine that turns a generator which then runs electric motors, just like a locomotive. Not to be confused by "hybrid" buses which use batteries and the engine drives the wheels. There are no batteries on these buses. These are laid out just like a locomotive. I saw both kinds.I'm not interested in your idiotic political nonsense. I want to know more about RDCs and if they would be viable for electro-motive. Anyone?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
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