http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090219/OPINION02/902190313/1005/OPINION
I don't know if this will actually come to pass, but NJT is already working on returning part of the route to service from NJ to Scranton, PA.
OK Sam, tell us why it's a bad idea.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The idea of having Amtrak doing a survey is not a bad idea. A previous survey done at the request of NYS proved that the Erie route east of Binghamton was not viable and that any routing through Scranton would work better. However the short coming of the first survey was that it covered Broome County and Steuben counties of NY it did not cover people in counties between Broome and Steuben nor adjacent counties in Pennsylvania. I am not sure how the Amtrak study is being done or where. There are those who feel that only communities and counties along the I81 Corridor should be studied while I feel the study has to also work west along the old Lackawanna and Erie railroads' corridor as outlined above as it is the more traditional market for the Southern Tier of NY. Doing service from Syracuse to BInghamton to NY will not add anything to upstate NY: Syracuse is already served by Amtrak; Cortland will not add that many passengers while Owego, Waverly,Elmira, Corning and Hornell, NY and Sayre and Athens PA, along with the counties involved and the colleges in Ithaca,Alfred, Elmira, etc, will add passengers; no time would be gained Syracuse to NY via Binghamton because no matter what is done to the track two and a half hours will still be the best time keeping the total Syr to NY at 6 or so hours. A Buffalo to Binghamton to NY route would prove, I feel, better for overall passenger count and serve Upstate NY best; that is why I hope the Amtrak study includes that area and not just Cortland.
East of Binghamton, the former DL&W route is virtually intact from Binghamton to Slateford, PA but is under two owerships, Canadian Pacific to Scranton and the Pennsylvania coalition of rail authorities and counties on to Slateford. NJT is stuck with returning tracks to the former DL&W NJ Cut Off to make it a complete route again. With the traffic problems along I81 and 180 into and across NJ, especially through the Delaware Water Gap, planning a passenger rail service is imperative for the future. NJT and the PA group are already committed to bringing a service of up to 8 trains a day to Scranton. If so, the Amtrak study need not get involved with the logistics and rebuilding of the entire route but only the needs and desires of the population west of Scranton toward Buffalo and Syracuse and the physical arrangements that would have to be made with CP, NS, and NYSW.
Yeah, I've been involved in this since the day the EL stopped service. I have done some informal market questioning with travel agents, bus companies, and lots of business people and potential riders in the Broome County area. Times have changed since the EL pulled the pin in 1970. Fuel, parking, and insurance costs have gone up; highway infrastructure is in poor shape; environmental concerns with air quality in and around NYC have escalated, and congestion is so poor that what could be a 3 hour drive often takes 5 or more hours during peak driving periods. If the weather is bad, forget about it.
So, I would like to see the service return. And the first next step (Amtrak is doing this because of pressue our so called "Grass Roots" committee of about 5 years has put on Sen. Shumer's office to approach Amtrak) is to get this survey done to see who is right and who is wrong and what really has to be and can be done. Lets limit the discussion to whether or not the survey should be done because it will give the answer. Then that answer of yes or no to passenger rail service can be debated.
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Henry:
I agree with you, including the part about not wanting to run passengers down that old Erie RR Delaware River route. When I lived in Sullivan County in the '70s, it was pretty rag tag. They put trains on the ground with some regularity. I have some pictures of the one that went through the feed mill in Hankins. On the other hand, NJT does already come all the way to Port Jervis.
I left Binghamton 17 years ago and have no reason to return, so I would never ride it, but I would like to see it return. Perhaps they could even use the old name.
It will be interesting to see what the survey finds.
Phoebe Vet Henry: I agree with you, including the part about not wanting to run passengers down that old Erie RR Delaware River route. When I lived in Sullivan County in the '70s, it was pretty rag tag. They put trains on the ground with some regularity. I have some pictures of the one that went through the feed mill in Hankins. On the other hand, NJT does already come all the way to Port Jervis. I left Binghamton 17 years ago and have no reason to return, so I would never ride it, but I would like to see it return. Perhaps they could even use the old name. It will be interesting to see what the survey finds.
I am glad you are in agreement that at least the survey has to be done to find out what can be or cannot be done.. It is surprising seeing comments about Binghamton from outsiders who don't know the town or the Southern Tier of NY. It was once a viable economic region which has fallen but is poised to rebound. At least thats what a lot of us who live here are working for. To see and hear comments by outsiders in other forums and threads dismiss this area as not worth looking at for any reason misleads others from the truth. Yes, the EL abandoned passenger service in 1970 but the whole world was a lot different and the time has come to revisit rail passenger services for many reasons. Those who reside in the upper reaches of the East Branch of the Susquehanna River--New York's Southern Tier--are coming around to realize what is needed to help progress. With air service to NYC non existant (except via Detroit, Washington,or Philadelphia), and the increasing congestion on the highways (Route 17-I86 in NY and the I81-I80 corridor through PA and NJ) and its attendent problems of rebuilding, not able to increase the number of lanes in the NY Metropolitan area, and enviormental pollution effecting both private automobile and bus service, we have to look at the feasability of rail passenger service for our economic future. That is why the survey has to be done and done in an intellegent and all inclusive way. And that is why those who are naysayer and rock throwers from without must be ignored.
I thought a survey had already been done and it was concluded that the EL Southern Tier route from Port Jervis to Binghamton was too curvy and long to be viable, and it would be better to connect Binghamton to Scranton and the new/old NJT route via the cutoff?
Am I confusing things here?
You are reffering to the survey commissioned by the State of NY several years ago which I outlined above. Updated data has to be gathered, all of the Southern Tier market area included, and the fact that NJT and PA are providing an infrastructure east of Scranton considered. The initial survey did note that the former Erie main to Port Jervis did not touch any real population centers and would have offered an unmarketable 5 plus hour ride and that a route through Scranton would be a better choice with better marketing opportunities if such service was ever to be considered.
No population centers along the Delaware River line? What about beautiful Minisink Ford, Callicoon, and Barryville? ROFL
The probable reason that NJT comes all the way to Port Jervis is because there are commuters that far from NYC. And even more in the summer. A great many NYC residents have summer homes in that area. They often park their families there for the summer and commute.
But after seeing personally how many trains the weary Erie put on the ground down there in the 70s, I wouldn't ride a passenger train that took that route. Record my vote in favor of the Scranton route. Besides, think of the view as you cross the Starucca Viaduct.
When a business is considering a new product or service line, management asks these questions:
The proponents of any new passenger rail service should be required to address the first three questions. Passenger rail is not likely to return a profit, but ideally it should cover its costs. At a minimum it should cover its operating costs. Otherwise, nonusers (taxpayers) have to pay for a service that they do not or cannot use.
I don't know whether the proposed rail service is justified. I am not familiar with the area. Neither are most people who don't live there just as most people who don't live in Texas don't understand it. This is one of the reasons that I believe regional transport solutions should be determined and paid for by the people in the region who can potentially use it.
Sam1 When a business is considering a new product or service line, management asks these questions: How much will it cost? What is the market demand for the product or service? Will the market generate sufficient revenues to cover the variable and fixed costs? Will the revenues be sufficient to generate a return for the investors? The proponents of any new passenger rail service should be required to address the first three questions. Passenger rail is not likely to return a profit, but ideally it should cover its costs. At a minimum it should cover its operating costs. Otherwise, nonusers (taxpayers) have to pay for a service that they do not or cannot use. I don't know whether the proposed rail service is justified. I am not familiar with the area. Neither are most people who don't live there just as most people who don't live in Texas don't understand it. This is one of the reasons that I believe regional transport solutions should be determined and paid for by the people in the region who can potentially use it.
Precisely the thinking of those of us who live here.. I have heard and read many calls for dismissing the concept of rail passenger service to, from, or through Binghamton from many who don't live here and don't understand the history or enconomy of the area and what has to be done to meet the future (many don't even know how to spell Binghamton!).. This Amtrak study is nothing more than exploring the marketing possibities and needs of rail passenger services and in no way is a solid, formidable plan to run a train or trains. We are smart enough to know who we are, what we need, and what questions we have to ask and what we have to do to determine what we can and cannot do.
I also like your concept of regional approach to rail passenger service. Where I probably differ is that I believe Amtrak (or an Amtrak) can and should be the admistrator and coordinator of such services. Instead of worrying about connecting cities via long distance services and catching regional needs wherever, the effort should be to affect regional rail services which would lead to long distance services which are viable and effective.
Sam:
I do not live there now, but I was born and raised there. I could see the Delaware & Hudson and the Erie railroad main lines from the house where I grew up, and the DL&W (Lackawanna) was in range of my bicycle. My wife's paternal grandfather retired from the Lackawanna.
The study will give the answers you seek. That is, after all, the purpose of the study. But I can tell you that the primary market for such a route would be people traveling to NYC. The area used to have direct air service to NYC, but no more. If your destination is on Manhattan, the trip from any NYC airport to lower Manhattan negates any advantage of the short flight. If you drive ... well, you have probably been there. Have you ever tried to operate an automobile and park in lower Manhattan?
But a train along the Lackawanna Cutoff would put you via Hoboken, or NYP right into the subway system. No rental car, no cab rides, no parking.
The area of which we speak has a great history, but has gone through a severe decline.
It was a focal point of the Clinton / Sullivan Campaign during the Revolution. It has one of the oldest zoos in the US. It was the birthplace of IBM. It was the birthplace of Link Flight Simulation. A link "Blue Box" trainer, the first flight trainer ever, is on display in the Smithsonian. It was the birthplace of Endicott Johnson shoes, which at one time was the largest in the US. The Lackawanna stations in Binghamton and Scranton were used for the first ever radio transmission to a moving train. One of the 4 towers used in that experiment still stands beside the Binghamton Lackawanna Station.
But those things are all in the past. The area's effort to return RR passenger service is part of a campaign to revitalize the area.
I think I might have said this before, but I spend my college and early career in that area and have been wondering about its lack of passenger rail given its extensive use as a freight hub (at the time). I think that rather than Port Jervis line it would probably be getting its most effective service via Scranton.
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