Demand greater than supply?
Doesn't seem so.
The Crescent is running with one sleeper lately. Saturday's train has at least 8 roomettes and 2 bedrooms still unbooked between Atlanta and DC! (It is also down to 3 coaches, now, too) (8 and two are the max the Amtrak website will display - there are likely more available.)
Saturday's Silver Meteor also has at least 8 roomettes and 2 bedrooms available between Jax and Wash DC.
Saturday's LSL has at least 8 roomettes and 2 bedrooms available between Chicago and Albany.
Saturday's California Zephyr Chicago to Denver, same thing.
Where is the demand?
If Amtrak bought an addtional 50 Viewliners, there'd be 50+ of them sitting stored at Bear DE. now.
You could probably fill some of them in the summer vacation months, but is it wise to invest $2M for an asset you only use 25% of the time to provide subsidized leisure travel for the middle class?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Try the Friday Crescent. I just tried to book the Crescent on a friday in April and it's already sold out.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
oltmannd Demand greater than supply? Doesn't seem so. The Crescent is running with one sleeper lately. Saturday's train has at least 8 roomettes and 2 bedrooms still unbooked between Atlanta and DC! (It is also down to 3 coaches, now, too) (8 and two are the max the Amtrak website will display - there are likely more available.)
I know how to determine if an accommodation is available. How did you determine the number of unsold spaces?
Remember Amtrak brought on many of there problems years ago when they first took over passenger services. They tried operating Santa Fe cars system wide when no one outside the Santa Fe knew how to operate there steam injector system A/C units and that was just one of the horror stories. I many ways Amtrak was there own worst enemy in the early years and nearly every newspaper in the country was writing Amtrak horror stories and there were plenty to go around. The one thing I will give Amtrak today is that the equipment is able to be worked on at all terminals. There is no reason for Amtrak to have the problems with the equipment they have.That doesn't mean that it was in working order when it arrived at a terminal and for how long it was out of order is another matter. Via Rail Canada was a much better example of how it should have been done. Probably the finest example of RR service in the United States is represented by the Alaska Railroad.
Amtrak needs to have every employee trained by Southwest Airlines or American Airlines for six weeks before they ever see there first passenger. I would like to say they should have been trained by Pullman or the Santa Fe but there are probably none of those still serviving. Maybe they should look at the books produced by Pullman for the employees and learn something about serving the traveling public. If you want the passengers to ever come back to rail travel then it has to be packaged and presented differently then it is today, and I certainly don't mean that it has to be presented like the former American European Express trains or anything like it. First whether it be LD or SD the trains must be on time. They must be clean and comfortable and the crews must be able to attend to the passengers needs. I don't care if it sounds like the dumbest question in the world or one that has been asked a thousand time that crew member should smile and answer that travelers question. There should be travelers that are hired by Amtrak just to check crew performance and make reports out to go to Amtrak headquarters without anyone on the train knowing what is going on. If they ever hope to change the traveling publics perception of Amtrak now is the time.
New equipment must be purchased and brought into service as quickly as possible. And this time adequate numbers of this equipment must be the order of the day. Replace all Superliners with Superliner IIIs and double the quantities of the present fleet, and use the older Superliner cars for summer and Christmas travel. Double the number of Acelas, and whatever Amtrak does do not purchase another Viewliner and scrap the ones they have or use them for homeless shelters.
Al - in - Stockton
Al - in - Stockton, if the Southern had gone into Amtrak at the beginning, there would have been some A/C men who had knowledge of the steam injector A/C. Perhaps I should find one of my copies of the Passenger Equipment Register and see what other roads also used this system. I know there were not many.
Johnny
Phoebe Vet Try the Friday Crescent. I just tried to book the Crescent on a friday in April and it's already sold out.
Worse than a car that's only needed 3 months a year is one that's only needed 1 day a week.
Sam1 oltmannd Demand greater than supply? Doesn't seem so. The Crescent is running with one sleeper lately. Saturday's train has at least 8 roomettes and 2 bedrooms still unbooked between Atlanta and DC! (It is also down to 3 coaches, now, too) (8 and two are the max the Amtrak website will display - there are likely more available.) I know how to determine if an accommodation is available. How did you determine the number of unsold spaces?
I notice YOU chose a low volume day to quote your numbers. Anyone wanting to travel from Atlanta to DC for the weekend isn't going to take the Saturday Crescent. It arrives Sunday mid morning.
Deggesty Al - in - Stockton, if the Southern had gone into Amtrak at the beginning, there would have been some A/C men who had knowledge of the steam injector A/C. Perhaps I should find one of my copies of the Passenger Equipment Register and see what other roads also used this system. I know there were not many. Johnny
It wasn't just the steam injector A/C but RRs ordered cars custom built to there specs and every RR had there own idea what a passenger car should be and what equipment should be on it. Look at the CB&Q they used a prewar truck design through the 1956 Denver Zephyr. How many different types of trucks were in use on the different RRs and how many shop forces were familiar with more than one or two types. Even when the BN merger took place they did not let the passenger equipment stray far from the previous home rails. But when Amtrak took over they had AT&SF cars running in New York, Florida and everywhere in between as one example and it created nothing but problems. If Amtrak would have eased into the passenger business by training personel before the takeover in the different types of A/C and troubleshooting it and trained the RR engineers and fireman in the steam injector secrets it sure would have saved many passengers who were willing to give Amtrak a chance.
Amtrak PR people should have been out there countering every negative newspaper article and pointed out some of there good points though few they may have been. For a logo they chose the pointless arrow kind of ironic as that really did seem to fit them in most peoples minds. Passengers were tired of all of the lame duck excuses why trains were late and for those already on the trains if they were running late was it such a big deal to pick up a microphone or inform the entire crew so they could let the passengers know what the reasons for the delays were. In many cases this would have put the passengers minds at ease and maybe they would have felt a little better about the delay.
With gasoline prices in a temporary lull it is time for the government new or not to make up there minds whether they want a national RR passenger system or not and if the conclusion is yes then they need to pour the money into it to make it among the best in the world or back off altogther and let it die. But Amtak has operated as a half a**ed system since its inception and now is the time to make up there minds once and for all. Is the United states going to have a national rail system that is no longer a laughing stock or not.
Phoebe Vet I notice YOU chose a low volume day to quote your numbers. Anyone wanting to travel from Atlanta to DC for the weekend isn't going to take the Saturday Crescent. It arrives Sunday mid morning.
I just did Friday 4/17 and 4/24 - at least 8 and 2 open those Fridays in April...Are those low volume days?
A) that is still 2 1/2 months away.
B) Very few of the people who take that train buy sleepers.
A) 8+ roomettes on Friday 2/27 still available
B) Then why have the sleeper at all! The case in this thread was being made that Amtrak needs DOUBLE the amount of sleepers to handle the demand. Where is the steady state demand?
oltmannd A) 8+ roomettes on Friday 2/27 still available B) Then why have the sleeper at all! The case in this thread was being made that Amtrak needs DOUBLE the amount of sleepers to handle the demand. Where is the steady state demand?
You are the only one I've ever heard or read that's complained about the noise.
How can you justify replacements for equipment that's only really used on weekends, holidays and summer? Where's the ROI?
I believe it is called "steam ejector" airconditioning.
It works on the same principle as the smokestack-driven boiler draft on the steam locomotive and as the steam ejector for vacuum brakes. A jet of steam enters a contoured nozzle, having the effect of entraining the surrounding air and pulling a partial vacuum. In the case of a steam locomotive, that vacuum draws combustion air into the firebox and through the flues to greatly improve the rate of steaming. In the case of steam ejector AC, that vacuum causes water to boil at a temperature well below the atmospheric boiling point of water and well below normal air temperature, producing a cooling effect.
I need to check on this, but I suspect we use steam ejector AC here at the University in our Charter Street plant. The plant burns coal to provide steam heat in winter, chilled water in summer, and if they somehow chill water by using coal to raise steam, I am guessing they are using steam ejectors. The other thing they could do is use steam to power an ammonia absorption cycle, and I will have to ask what they actually use.
The steam ejector airconditioner is dirt simple -- you have this steam ejector nozzle to pull a vacuum in a box, and you spray water into that box that flashes into vapor, and the result is cold.
The operational problem with steam ejector AC is that it needs steam or there ain't no AC. That means keeping a locomotive steam boiler going (on Diesels they are called steam generators). I had read in Trains that 1) locomotive steam generators could be troublesome and require constant monitoring from train crews to make sure they keep going, and 2) you have to fire up and keep going that steam generator on the hotest of hot days in summer, and unless you know that the AC needs steam, a person kind of gets to wondering why they need to keep a steam generator going full blast and supplied with water in summer.
The information I got from reading is that the problem wasn't so much that steam ejector AC is troublesome, it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is. The problem was instructing crews to keep the steam generators going full blast in summer, which seems like a stupid idea unless you know that the AC requires that steam.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
Paul MilenkovicThe information I got from reading is that the problem wasn't so much that steam ejector AC is troublesome, it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is. The problem was instructing crews to keep the steam generators going full blast in summer, which seems like a stupid idea unless you know that the AC requires that steam.
Yes, Paul, and it took more steam to cool than it did to heat.
Deggesty Paul MilenkovicThe information I got from reading is that the problem wasn't so much that steam ejector AC is troublesome, it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is. The problem was instructing crews to keep the steam generators going full blast in summer, which seems like a stupid idea unless you know that the AC requires that steam. Yes, Paul, and it took more steam to cool than it did to heat. Johnny
I also have some notes in this regard about SP trying the steam ejector A/C and in no time they switched. Apparently there engineers were never able to master the high constant steam pressure. Both the Santa Fe and SP served much of the same territory and the one never had trouble at all with steam ejector A/C was it the training the engineers received.
Paul Milenkovic The steam ejector airconditioner is dirt simple ... it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is
The steam ejector airconditioner is dirt simple
...
it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is
At first glance by a layperson in this modern era using steam to make air conditioning is sure counter intuitive, but actually most stationary air conditioning is steam generated, since it gets its power from the general electric grid, and we make most of our electricity in this world from steam.
As for using it in rail passenger cars, part of its simplicity back in the steam locomotive days was that you had a teakettle at the front of the train, so it made some sense to run steam pipes through the coaches to make heat. Did the steam air conditioning use those same hot steam pipes and then do its vacuum 'jecting job in the coaches to make the cold air? That would certainly explain to me why we could get coaches buillt in the 1940's and 50's with steam pipes, as opposed to steam locomotives with electric generators for hotel power.
passengerfan so I am sticking with old age
so I am sticking with old age
as opposed to giving up old age for the alternative?
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance Paul Milenkovic The steam ejector airconditioner is dirt simple ... it is probably the most bullet-proof form of AC there is At first glance by a layperson in this modern era using steam to make air conditioning is sure counter intuitive, but actually most stationary air conditioning is steam generated, since it gets its power from the general electric grid, and we make most of our electricity in this world from steam. As for using it in rail passenger cars, part of its simplicity back in the steam locomotive days was that you had a teakettle at the front of the train, so it made some sense to run steam pipes through the coaches to make heat. Did the steam air conditioning use those same hot steam pipes and then do its vacuum 'jecting job in the coaches to make the cold air? That would certainly explain to me why we could get coaches buillt in the 1940's and 50's with steam pipes, as opposed to steam locomotives with electric generators for hotel power. passengerfan so I am sticking with old age as opposed to giving up old age for the alternative?
But there were several other A/C types at the time Amtrak took over and I am sure they created problems as well for those not familiar with them. And don't forget the different type trucks that were under all of those cars from the different RRs. It had to be a nightmare for Amtrak in those early years but I still maintain they brought much of it on themselves. They did not have a clue what they were getting into and some still holds true today. But I still maintain that a major shortage of compatible equipment was there biggest problem in the early years. Just because cars would couple togeteher did not make them compatible.
Steam ejector A/C--I at last unearthed the latest edition of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment that I have--the 1968 edition. It shows that there were two main users of this system: the Santa Fe and the Southern. Various other roads had a few cars with this system: L&N, ACL, SAL (they may have come from the FEC), CG, and WRA. The SFe high-level cars had electro-mechanical A/C, but steam ejector was the standard for all single level cars. Yes, there was only one steam line in a car, and it was used both for heating (passengers and water) and cooling.
Another mistake that Amtrak made in its early years was operating cars built for service in the north (GN & NP, notably) on Florida trains, and cars built for Florida service on the trains to Seattle. The large windows on the Florida cars kept the passengers cool in the winter on the Seattle trains, and the small windows on the GN/NP cars kept the heat in in the summer. Wasn't wonderful that passengers who had never traveled in the other region were able to at last use the cars built for it?
Another system that was used, though not as often as the electro-mechanical, was the Waukesha system, of which I know practically nothing. A fourth system still in use in 1968 was ice (the original A/C system).
If you rented a car, the added perdiem charge, in addition to the charge for the car, for ice A/C was $4.30, for electro-mechanical, steam, or Waukesha was $9.50. Added mileage charge was .013 for ice and .029 for any of the other three.
Deggesty Steam ejector A/C--I at last unearthed the latest edition of The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment that I have--the 1968 edition. It shows that there were two main users of this system: the Santa Fe and the Southern. Various other roads had a few cars with this system: L&N, ACL, SAL (they may have come from the FEC), CG, and WRA. The SFe high-level cars had electro-mechanical A/C, but steam ejector was the standard for all single level cars. Yes, there was only one steam line in a car, and it was used both for heating (passengers and water) and cooling. Another mistake that Amtrak made in its early years was operating cars built for service in the north (GN & NP, notably) on Florida trains, and cars built for Florida service on the trains to Seattle. The large windows on the Florida cars kept the passengers cool in the winter on the Seattle trains, and the small windows on the GN/NP cars kept the heat in in the summer. Wasn't wonderful that passengers who had never traveled in the other region were able to at last use the cars built for it? Another system that was used, though not as often as the electro-mechanical, was the Waukesha system, of which I know practically nothing. A fourth system still in use in 1968 was ice (the original A/C system). If you rented a car, the added perdiem charge, in addition to the charge for the car, for ice A/C was $4.30, for electro-mechanical, steam, or Waukesha was $9.50. Added mileage charge was .013 for ice and .029 for any of the other three. Johnny
Never paid to much attention to the windows will have to look at that more closely as I have plans for all of the lightweight streamlined cars from P/S, Budd, AC&F, and St. Louis Car. I also have a book that goes into great details on all of the different trucks and includes pictures that were found under the lightweight streamlined cars. I have a pretty extensive library on the heavyweights although they have never held that much interest for me. Anither area of interest I can never find enough information on is the lightweight cars that were the slumbercoaches and cars used in those type services. CN offered some pretty comfortable coaches with reclining seats that passengers paid a premium to ride over coach fare that were very nice in the sixties and seventies.
Don't get me wrong, guys, I love trains and would hate to see passenger service cut, but from a realistic standpoint, I don't really think that long distance passenger service has a future. Just think, if you weren't a rail fan, and you had, say, 10 days of paid vacation a year. You live in Georgia and want to spend your vacation in Yellowstone. Are you seriously gonna sacrifice 4 days of your precious vacation just to get there and back? And since you can't afford a cabin on a sleeper, you're gonna pay more for you, your wife and 2 kids to ride coach cross country than you would for the flight that will get you there in 3 hours? And the bi-weekly train leaves a depot 200 miles from your home and stops at 2:34 am, you're gonna get everybody in the car around 11 pm to get to the station on time? I don't think so! Long distance passenger service is too infrequent, too expensive, too inconvenient and too slow. And there is no cheap way to fix any of that!
So what does the future of passenger rail in North America look like?
More and more metropolitan areas will offer light and heavy rail commuter service.
(High speed) corridor service will improve where it makes sense.
The Auto Train to Florida will continue.
Long distance trains will only run on scenic lines, offering tourists comfortable rail vacations (for example through the Rockies, the Smokey Mountains, the Adirondacks, up the Pacific coast, just to name a few possibilites).
I believe I have found an answer to my question about the nature of Waukesha A/C. It is a mechanical system that uses, instead of an electric motor, a gas (such as propane) powered engine to turn the compressor.
Incidentally, did you ever ride in a slowly moving car with electro-mechanical A/C and low batteries? You do not get much cooling. In February of 1967, I rode the Silver Meteor's combine from Tampa to St. Petersburg. This car was operated between Wildwood and St. Pete, and thus did not have enough opportunity for the battery to be fully charged. Even in February, it was warm in the car. The diner (NY-SP) was comfortable.
Lee KochDon't get me wrong, guys, I love trains and would hate to see passenger service cut, but from a realistic standpoint, I don't really think that long distance passenger service has a future. Just think, if you weren't a rail fan, and you had, say, 10 days of paid vacation a year. You live in Georgia and want to spend your vacation in Yellowstone. Are you seriously gonna sacrifice 4 days of your precious vacation just to get there and back? And since you can't afford a cabin on a sleeper, you're gonna pay more for you, your wife and 2 kids to ride coach cross country than you would for the flight that will get you there in 3 hours? And the bi-weekly train leaves a depot 200 miles from your home and stops at 2:34 am, you're gonna get everybody in the car around 11 pm to get to the station on time? I don't think so! Long distance passenger service is too infrequent, too expensive, too inconvenient and too slow. And there is no cheap way to fix any of that!
Hold on a second here. Just like what was said before- its a challenge to just keep the trains alive and an even greater challenge to improve them with the minimal funding Amtrak has. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Who said they can't be made faster, more efficient, more frequent and more convenient for the average traveller.
You're right. It sucks to drive 200 miles from home to catch a train in the middle of the night. But look at the skeletal system Amtrak has. Everyone knows that can be improved.
ps- Georgia to Wyoming? I know thats stretching it. But a trip of far less distance can be plausible (Chicago or even Minneapolis/St. Paul to Wyoming sounds more like it).
Deggesty I believe I have found an answer to my question about the nature of Waukesha A/C. It is a mechanical system that uses, instead of an electric motor, a gas (such as propane) powered engine to turn the compressor. Incidentally, did you ever ride in a slowly moving car with electro-mechanical A/C and low batteries? You do not get much cooling. In February of 1967, I rode the Silver Meteor's combine from Tampa to St. Petersburg. This car was operated between Wildwood and St. Pete, and thus did not have enough opportunity for the battery to be fully charged. Even in February, it was warm in the car. The diner (NY-SP) was comfortable. Johnny
The clutch on the generator on most LD coaches usually was set to pick up at speeds above 35 mph or so. Not so bad when you had 10 mile stretches of 60-80 mph to keep the batteries up. When these cars went into commuter service, as-is, with stops every two mile or so (think Harlem Line on the NYC), guess what happened to the batteries!
I hope Amtrak will be able to keep them running. I've rode before Amtrak with my
parents on Dad's Frisco pass and also the Empire Builder and Southwest Chief with Amtrak.
The scenery on the Western routes is incredible and many places are accessible only by rail.
So it would be a shame to let them fall by the wayside, especially for tourists who come from
Europe and other places to ride these trains. I know, because I've met some on my trips.
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