The September '08 Trains has a first hand account from a crew member of the Sunset Limited (Gary Farmer) that plunged into Big Bayou Canot in 1993 after a tugboat knocked a CSX bridge out of alignment in the fog.
Farmer does not discuss whether the crewmen on the tug were criminally prosecuted a la Ricky Gates. My question is: were they?
motor
No, I don't know if they were prosecuted. I don't even know who got the biggest civil damages bill, AMTRAK, CSX whom I assume own the bridge, the boat-barge company, or whatever authority was in charge of the waterway, which from my recollection was not supposed to be navigable for that type of watercraft.
You may want to pick another example than Gates, otherwise you might get some oranges with your apples. Unless I'm mistaken, the signals were working, Gates went past a stop signal, Gates's training should have told him that one reason for that stop signal is that there's going to be another train, and anybody's common sense should say 2 trains can't occupy the same track, so I'm expecting Gates to have known to look at the signal and to have known that going through it would likely result in collision.
On the other hand the boat folks might not necessarily have been expected to know that a train was coming so soon that they couldn't have radioed a warning and banging into a bridge does not always damage the bridge so much that vehicles would fall off. If I'm not mistaken, the bridge structure was ok, the impact moved a piece of rail, which caused the train to derail.
They might not necessarily have been expected to know that it was a railroad bridge, a highway bridge might have taken the same impact and still not have been a disaster, again I refer to the kinked rail that derailed the train. I'm less forgiving of that aspect since I'm assuming they had a map showing the bridges where the boat was supposed to be, and I'm assuming that the railroad also crossed that nearby stream. And even if they couldn't have seen it was a railroad bridge from a distance, I'm expecting that once they hit it they were close enough to get a good look, even in the dark and fog that I think I remember was the condition at the time.
So Gates seems to me to have crossed the criminal threshold, but I'm not convinced the boat was criminal.
Patrick Boylan
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gardendance wrote: On the other hand the boat folks might not necessarily have been expected to know that a train was coming so soon that they couldn't have radioed a warning and banging into a bridge does not always damage the bridge so much that vehicles would fall off. If I'm not mistaken, the bridge structure was ok, the impact moved a piece of rail, which caused the train to derail.
The 4 man crew of the Mauvilla was not aware that it was a bridge they stuck until the Sunset Limited was in the water. Regarding the captain, Andrew Stabler, I don't feel he should have been charged with anything of a criminal nature, as he was off duty and asleep when the bridge was struck.
For those without the current issue of Trains, the article is online and has this to say about the pilot who was running the boat-The first time I saw Willie Odom, he was a medium-sized man about my height, and in good health. Several years later at yet another trial, he reminded me of a walking dead man, only responding to direct questioning, and never raising his eyes from the floor.http://www.gcwriters.org/destruction_of_amtrak.htm
Please read the article and the sidebars more thoroughly. The signals were working and remained GREEN.
BECAUSE WHEN THE BRIDGE SHIFTED THE RAILS WERE BENT BUT NOT SHORTED OR INTERRUPTED AND THE TRACK CIRCUIT WAS MAINTAINED.
nanaimo73 wrote: gardendance wrote: On the other hand the boat folks might not necessarily have been expected to know that a train was coming so soon that they couldn't have radioed a warning and banging into a bridge does not always damage the bridge so much that vehicles would fall off. If I'm not mistaken, the bridge structure was ok, the impact moved a piece of rail, which caused the train to derail.The 4 man crew of the Mauvilla was not aware that it was a bridge they stuck until the Sunset Limited was in the water. Regarding the captain, Andrew Stabler, I don't feel he should have been charged with anything of a criminal nature, as he was off duty and asleep when the bridge was struck.
From what I can remember around the time of the crash, didn't the tugboat crew not call in about any problems until after the crash and only then reported that they'd "lost their tow". I remember there was an issue with the discrepancies between when the Amtrak crew reported the crash and the times that the tugboat crew made their calls in regarding losing their tow and then the crash.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Think of all accdents that could have been prevented if they had just collected the fog in a jar and arrested it back then!
Ya as I recall part of the problem was the boat was lost in the fog, so the crew didn't immediately know what they had hit or where they were, so all they could report was basically "we're somewhere and hit something, but don't know where or what". The swingbridge part I believe had been welded shut at that spot, ironically if it hadn't been the impact might have moved the track enough to break the signal circuit and cause a red signal to show for the train crew instead of the green indication they got.
Hello my friend, I ran across this question while cruising through the forums. I wrote the article in question, so I thought I would reply. The crewmen involved in the wreck were never prosecuted criminally, although, during the NTSB hearings in Mobile, I was approached by the local District Attorney and advised that his office was looking into the possibility. Apparently no charges were filed, and I am glad for that. Over the years as the court cases wound their way through the system, I met the crew on occasion, and believe me, they have paid many times over for what was essentially a tragic accident. I sincerely hope that they find peace within their lives. God knows they will need it.
Regards,
Gary Farmer
sunset Hello my friend, I ran across this question while cruising through the forums. I wrote the article in question, so I thought I would reply. The crewmen involved in the wreck were never prosecuted criminally, although, during the NTSB hearings in Mobile, I was approached by the local District Attorney and advised that his office was looking into the possibility. Apparently no charges were filed, and I am glad for that. Over the years as the court cases wound their way through the system, I met the crew on occasion, and believe me, they have paid many times over for what was essentially a tragic accident. I sincerely hope that they find peace within their lives. God knows they will need it. Regards, Gary Farmer
In the 50 or so years that I have been following the fortunes of railroads, including 15 working on railroads, I can't recall an wreck with less human fault than the Suset wreck. It seems to me that the tugboat crewmembers were trying to do their job and follow the appropriate steps for the circumstances.
I've seen much of what was written of the wreck, including the NTSB report, but yours is the only first person story I have read. It is a moving record of an important historical event.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
After reading the NTSB results on the investigation, it is clear the politics of barge traffic won that one. The towboat was lost on the wrong channel and the watchstander was unable to use the simple radar to navigate. Apparently they didn't even have charts in the wheelhouse. What was the watchstander using to navigate? And apparently he believed the had run aground with enough force to detach the barges.The unqualified pilot was totally at fault, but the findings decided that Amtrak and the railroad could have done something about this and found that the missing flashlights in the coaches contributed to the accident.
Amtrak and CSX could have done nothing to prevent this disaster. Even if the barge had pushed the track over a few inches, it would have derailed the train catastrophically. And, most likely, track signals would have not indicated a problem.
Being lost is not an excuse! The captain is fully responsible for all actions of his ship (even while sleeping). The crew should have been prosecuted for murder and hung. If this had been a Navy vessel the Captain and bridge crew would have been court martialed and probably still be in prison. But since the pockets of the barge company were not as deep and barges have claimed that it is hard to navigate in tricky waters, Amtrak shared the blame for this one.
Must be nice to have politics dominate sensible analysis of a (non) accident!
petitnj After reading the NTSB results on the investigation, it is clear the politics of barge traffic won that one. The towboat was lost on the wrong channel and the watchstander was unable to use the simple radar to navigate. Apparently they didn't even have charts in the wheelhouse. What was the watchstander using to navigate? And apparently he believed the had run aground with enough force to detach the barges.The unqualified pilot was totally at fault, but the findings decided that Amtrak and the railroad could have done something about this and found that the missing flashlights in the coaches contributed to the accident. Amtrak and CSX could have done nothing to prevent this disaster. Even if the barge had pushed the track over a few inches, it would have derailed the train catastrophically. And, most likely, track signals would have not indicated a problem. Being lost is not an excuse! The captain is fully responsible for all actions of his ship (even while sleeping). The crew should have been prosecuted for murder and hung. If this had been a Navy vessel the Captain and bridge crew would have been court martialed and probably still be in prison. But since the pockets of the barge company were not as deep and barges have claimed that it is hard to navigate in tricky waters, Amtrak shared the blame for this one. Must be nice to have politics dominate sensible analysis of a (non) accident!
Criminal prosecution is for the state to do and all the politics that is involved in state and local governments. Throw Maritime law on top of local politics and you end up with where the case has ended to this point in time.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
As I recall the most scrutiny fell on the river pilot who was not an employee of the barge company...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
It's a very sad story.
I recently toured Washington Union Station waiting on a train. Near the ticket counter there is a memorial to Amtrak workers, not freight or legacy passenger lines, but just Amtrak workers, who died on the job. It lists all their names, who died during merely 35 years of Amtrak being in business. I showed it to my wife and kids. The image stayed with me the whole day and I still think about it from time to time.
Dear Gary;
http://www.gcwriters.org/destruction_of_amtrak.htm
That is a chilling tale of a personal horror, It took guts and a lot of compassion to share that story.God Bless and Thank You!
As I recall, the History Channel did an episode of this accident on...well I can't remember what they called the series, "Great Disasters" or something like that. It was very interesting, seeing how a series of events lead to this tragedy. For example, as I noted earlier, the swing bridge had been closed and welded shut to only allow rail traffic. If it hadn't been welded, the impact probably would have jarred the bridge enough that the rails would have fully separated, causing the signals to go red. Instead, it moved the bridge just enough that the rails were out of alignment, but still touching.
I'm sure eventually it will air again.
There was extensive discussion of this and other bridge accidents on the thread titled Railroad bridge Failures on the General Discussion board. Last post was 3-15-10
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