Good Lord! This wasn't the 3:10 to Yuma.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/-ct-man-shot-on-metra-train-deerfield-task-force-dead-evergreen-park-20170107-story.html
We just discussed this exact same scenrio in this forum as Conceal Carry on Transit. Now why cant I find it in search function?
The Anti-Gun crowd will naturally point to this as an example of why concealled carry should NOT be allowed on trains and transit, but in reallity, this do not support their view. The suspect was not a CCW holder, not a law abiding citizen, and not legally eligible to own a firearm. Banning CCW holders from carrying on trains or transit would not have had any effect in this scenario, as the suspect was a Criminal, who by definition, is someone who has no regard for laws anyway, and would have, and obviously did carry a gun on board any way.
No CCW holders were involved in this case, and it is fortunate that the police were able to intervene. If a CCW holder had been present, and the police were not, itis very unlikely that any shooting would have taken place. The average CCW holder would have had no idea the suspect was wanted in connection with a murder, and would have done nothing to start said shootout, it was only after the suspect realized that the police were pursuing him, that any gunfire took place.
The only reason that a CCW holder would have had to draw their weapon, would have been, if the suspect started shooting people on the train, without the police being present. Personally in that scenario, I would want there to be a CCW holder present, who would possibly be able to stop the suspect from having an unopposed opportunity to shoot as many people as possible.
The average CCW holder is NOT some Rambo type looking for an excuse to use their weapon, but rather your neighbor, beautician (like my Wife) or the person in front of or behind you in line at the grocery store.most people would be surprised at how many CCW holders there are in public, but strangley the wild west shootouts that the anti-gun crowd always fret about, just don't seem to happen.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
The Evil Gun Owners have posted, This thread will be Locked/Deleted in, 10,9,8,7,6............
We are living in intresting times !
Not necess-celery, the surest way to get a thread locked is to be nasty, insulting, or otherwise rude to another poster, or to get 100% political where it doesn't apply to railroading.
I've never seen any problems with opinions honestly held as long as everyone stays respectful.
Firelock76 Not necess-celery, the surest way to get a thread locked is to be nasty, insulting, or otherwise rude to another poster, or to get 100% political where it doesn't apply to railroading. I've never seen any problems with opinions honestly held as long as everyone stays respectful.
Well put!! Maybe Challenger has a large chip on his shoulder.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
This past weekend was a light gun violence weekend for Chicago - only 53 shootings and 6 dead. Yes, that is a light weekend of violence. It is vary rare for this to happen on Metra as security works the major stations, and are often seen on the train. Notice in this case the number of officers trying to catch this person on the train.
schlimm Firelock76 Not necess-celery, the surest way to get a thread locked is to be nasty, insulting, or otherwise rude to another poster, or to get 100% political where it doesn't apply to railroading. I've never seen any problems with opinions honestly held as long as everyone stays respectful. Well put!! Maybe Challenger has a large chip on his shoulder.
Just surprized that I beat the usualposts about how all gun owners are Rambo types juiced up on testosterone.
If you REALLY want to do something to improve Public Safety, get the Government to pass legislation requiring cell phones to disable texting, and any other hand held function, if it detects that it is moving at more than 3-5 MPH. THAT would prevent more carnage than any gun control laws you could pass.
The phones have the technology to do this, and the way many people "HAVE to HAVE" the Newest, Latest and Greatest cell phones, it wouldn't take long to get the majority of the phones changed out, especially for the worst offenders.
I have been a truck driver for over 28 years, and I have seen first hand that too many drivers simply can NOT, put the phone down and drive.
A few questions: How would such a motion detector work?? If it does work as designed, would if also disable these functions if the phone is on a moving train, bus, etc. and the phone's owner is a passenger?
CSSHEGEWISCHA few questions: How would such a motion detector work?? If it does work as designed, would if also disable these functions if the phone is on a moving train, bus, etc. and the phone's owner is a passenger?
GPS sensor will detect motion. An electromagnetic sensor could detect the ignition pulses of a normal gasolene engine. I don't currently know what if any electronic controls are used with diesel that could be detected by a sensor. The sensor would have a range of about 6 feet or maybe less. Simple to discribe, more difficult to sweat out the details.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Pro-gun, anti-gun I don't care! The problem with CCW is when you have more than one in a situation and everyone thinks they are the 'good guy' and the other CCW's are the 'bad guy'. Figuring out who is good and who isn't in situations with gunfire is not always a straight forward problem, throw a good dose of adrenlin on top of everyone's decision making process and you can end up with a mell of hess - and a number of dead.
Thank you Mr. Schlimm. I don't know Challenger so I can't say whether he has a chip on his shoulder or not. I AM a gun owner myself, have been since 1970 and an NRA life member as well. Here in Virginia we have concealed-carry, hey we even have OPEN carry (although you don't see too many folks doing so) and there isn't any carnage on the streets, except for those "wrong side of the tracks" places where a certain element doesn't care about permits, or other laws for that matter.
No, I don't have a concealed carry permit myself, don't see the need in my case.
Remember the Movie "Escape From New York" well 30 years later its "Escape From Chicago"
bartman-tn This past weekend was a light gun violence weekend for Chicago - only 53 shootings and 6 dead. Yes, that is a light weekend of violence. It is vary rare for this to happen on Metra as security works the major stations, and are often seen on the train. Notice in this case the number of officers trying to catch this person on the train.
Sounds like now there might be a Federal takeover of Chicago of some sort to finally address the issue of the spreading of the Wild, Wild, West across the Chicago suburbs. Maybe the Feds will even get CREATE back on track and address other issues with Chicago while they are there.
So Blondie threatens to send the Feds to Chicago, whatever that means. Unless he plans to impose martial law
BaltACD Pro-gun, anti-gun I don't care! The problem with CCW is when you have more than one in a situation and everyone thinks they are the 'good guy' and the other CCW's are the 'bad guy'. Figuring out who is good and who isn't in situations with gunfire is not always a straight forward problem, throw a good dose of adrenlin on top of everyone's decision making process and you can end up with a mell of hess - and a number of dead.
The facts in most cases of law abiding CCW incidents does not support that view.
I personally have had to retrive my gun to defend my family from a burglery.
Most people with a carry permit are by virture of the responseablity the coolest heads on the scene.......there will always be exceptions.
But guns in the hands of law abiding private citizens save peoples lives every day, often without ever firing a shot. When the criminals on my property saw the gun, they ran. The police came, my gun remained on my person the whole time without question. The criminals were captured down the street a few miles. There were five of them and one of me, with my wife in bed recovering from knee surgery. I think the gun saved us........and we live in a "good" neighborhood, in a rural area.....
If bad guys know that people can and will defend themselves, it changes their behavior in advance a large percentage of the time. And if not, and they get dead, so what.
A gun is not a guarantee of safety, it is just having a chance when otherwise you would not.
Look up the case of the shooting at the Appalachia School of Law - a gun stopped that shooter without firing a shot, as soon as he was confronted by an armed person, he dropped his weapon and surrendered. Most criminals are cowards. Yet very few of the news reports about that shooting explained that that one of the two students who confonted the shooter and subdued him was armed.
I wonder why? The truth might support the idea that guns protect good people from bad people.
Sheldon
BaltACD CSSHEGEWISCH A few questions: How would such a motion detector work?? If it does work as designed, would if also disable these functions if the phone is on a moving train, bus, etc. and the phone's owner is a passenger? GPS sensor will detect motion. An electromagnetic sensor could detect the ignition pulses of a normal gasolene engine. I don't currently know what if any electronic controls are used with diesel that could be detected by a sensor. The sensor would have a range of about 6 feet or maybe less. Simple to discribe, more difficult to sweat out the details.
CSSHEGEWISCH A few questions: How would such a motion detector work?? If it does work as designed, would if also disable these functions if the phone is on a moving train, bus, etc. and the phone's owner is a passenger?
Hm, thinking. So in a gas-powered car, that would lock out both driver and front passenger. Maybe back seat passengers as well.
In a bus, the driver would be fine to do whatever, as would most passengers, except for the unlucky ones in the way back row, close to the engine, assuming that the bus, like many, has the engine mounted in the back.
Proximity to an internal combustion engine does not a driver make.
Just saying this needs more thought.
As I said - more difficult to sweat out the details.
No, the "Big D" can't send Federal troops to impose martial law in Chicago unless the local authorities ask for it. Federal law, I believe the "Posse Comitatus" act of 1877 prevents it.
Firelock76 No, the "Big D" can't send Federal troops to impose martial law in Chicago unless the local authorities ask for it. Federal law, I believe the "Posse Comitatus" act of 1877 prevents it.
Not exactly true
The Posse Commitatus law deals with the use of Federal troops for local policing. Presidents in the past have dispatched Troops without local permission as was the case with the use of the 101st Airborne in the Civil Rights era to forceably desegregate Little Rock schools. When the threat of violence or violence itself infringes on the Constitutional rights of American Citizens, the President and the Executive Branch can intervene directly. Also am somewhat confident that if Civil Rights are being impinged and on a more draconian note the Justice Department can intervene and suspend the local Police Department as well or greatly restrict their activities.
Unclear if they can remove the Mayor or Governor and I tend to think they would never test that as it would lead to a Supreme Court challenge.
As for imposition of Martial Law, once Federal Troops are deployed, that is up to the General in charge to really request but in past cases they get the Mayors approval (such as they did with Hurricane Katrina disaster) but in that case the troops were in LA at the specific request of the locals. Troops in Arkansas I don't think had any local permission to be there and the Arkansas National Guard was Federalized to avoid any conflicts between the Army and NG and to get the NG to stand down as in the case of Arkansas the Arkansas NG was harrassing African American students via orders by the Governor.
The worst that will happen in Chicago's case is President Trump will get the Chicago Mayor to request help and it will be either the NG or Regular Army depending on what the DoD feels is more appropriate. In the case of Hurricane Katrina they started out with the LA National Guard but due to heavy absenteeism the DoD Deployed the 82nd Airborne Division to New Orleans as well.
From what I heard on the news this morning the Chicago Mayor welcomes Federal involvement in quelling the violence in the city.
My personal fear is that in the course of being assulted I pull out a gun in a tunnel then what? I tell the assalent to get down then I have to get everyone else on the car off the train or hold them? In the process I might be the one who gets my brains blown away when the Transit Police Arrive even though I did not start the issue.
CandOforprogress2 My personal fear is that in the course of being assulted I pull out a gun in a tunnel then what? I tell the assalent to get down then I have to get everyone else on the car off the train or hold them? In the process I might be the one who gets my brains blown away when the Transit Police Arrive even though I did not start the issue.
So you, like the shooter in the story see nothing wrong with firing a pistol in a enclosed steel area? Thats nice. Your first thought should be to escape the enclosed steel structure because the chances of you getting hit by a stray and unaimed bullet or bullet fragment is pretty high. Second thought, if the guy is right on top of you and within reach, is to use your hands vs your pistol.
That Chicago ambiance is a little too dangerous for me. I'll walk, better yet - I'll just avoid it.
mudchicken That Chicago ambiance is a little too dangerous for me. I'll walk, better yet - I'll just avoid it.
I'll bet you schlimm still rides those trains and you can hear him in the background after the shooting complaining through the bullet holes in his newspaper about the smell of gun powder and how the HVAC should be more efficient at filtering the odor out. <just kidding>
CMStPnP, thanks for the "Posse Comitatus" explaination.
Firelock76 CMStPnP, thanks for the "Posse Comitatus" explaination.
I am not entirely sure about the law but I do know the 101st was deployed to Little Rock, Arkansas against both the Governors and Mayors will because it's part of their history and I served in that unit. 82nd Airborne after Katrina, read about it shortly after the event online via Troops bitching. They did not want to be there but because so many NO Police and local NG were deployed or didn't show up, they had no choice but to use Federal Troops.
CMStPnP CandOforprogress2 My personal fear is that in the course of being assulted I pull out a gun in a tunnel then what? I tell the assalent to get down then I have to get everyone else on the car off the train or hold them? In the process I might be the one who gets my brains blown away when the Transit Police Arrive even though I did not start the issue. So you, like the shooter in the story see nothing wrong with firing a pistol in a enclosed steel area? Thats nice. Your first thought should be to escape the enclosed steel structure because the chances of you getting hit by a stray and unaimed bullet or bullet fragment is pretty high. Second thought, if the guy is right on top of you and within reach, is to use your hands vs your pistol.
Evidently, reading comprehension isn't one of your strongest qualities. Where did CandO say anything about firing a weapon? He sure didn't say he was "FINE" with discharging his weapon inside a steel structure.
Granted, if one is to draw a weapon, they had best be PREPARED to use it, BUT by no means does that mean that a drawn weapon MUST be discharged.
As Sheldon mentioned often just presenting a weapon is sufficient to prevent the situation from escalating. That was EXACTLY the scenario at the Clackamas Town Center mall shooting incident near where I grew up. There was an active shooter in the mall, when an armed CCW holder presented his weapon. The CCW holder was only 22 years old, BUT was Mature enough to withold firing his weapon, because there were innocent people beyond the shooter, and he could not guarantee that one would not be injured by a possible missed shot.
In this case, just being confronted by an armed citizen was enough to cause the shooter to take his own life, WITHOUT the CCW holder ever firing a shot. If that CCW holder had NOT been present, there is no way of knowing how many more dead there would have been, before the police resolved the situation.
There is a REASON that schools in particular, and malls and movie theaters are the scenes of shootings rather than Police stations, the shooters KNOW that the chance of there being an armed citizen is low. Police stations on the other hand, are FULL of armed people, trained to use their weapons, no coincidence there.
Maybe someday, the anti-gunners will realize that gun control laws are an exercise in futility, Criminals are by definition, those that have no regard for laws, and the ones that would follow the laws, regardless of how little sense they make, are the ones that don't need said laws to prevent them from doing what the laws prohibit, anyway.
Balt I have respected your contributions to this forum in the past, and have learned a lot from your posts, but I do take exception with this one.
In both Sheldon's example, and the Clackamas Town Center incident, that I mentioned, armed citizens prevented the death toll from being higher than it was.
I am not aware of any examples of the mell of a hess, that you bring up, can you cite any documented examples? Reality so far has not supported the Wild West Shootouts that are so often fretted about by those who would wish to take away more of our RIGHTS.
challenger3980Evidently, reading comprehension isn't one of your strongest qualities. Where did CandO say anything about firing a weapon? He sure didn't say he was "FINE" with discharging his weapon inside a steel structure. Granted, if one is to draw a weapon, they had best be PREPARED to use it, BUT by no means does that mean that a drawn weapon MUST be discharged. As Sheldon mentioned often just presenting a weapon is sufficient to prevent the situation from escalating. That was EXACTLY the scenario at the Clackamas Town Center mall shooting incident near where I grew up. There was an active shooter in the mall, when an armed CCW holder presented his weapon. The CCW holder was only 22 years old, BUT was Mature enough to withold firing his weapon, because there were innocent people beyond the shooter, and he could not guarantee that one would not be injured by a possible missed shot. In this case, just being confronted by an armed citizen was enough to cause the shooter to take his own life, WITHOUT the CCW holder ever firing a shot. If that CCW holder had NOT been present, there is no way of knowing how many more dead there would have been, before the police resolved the situation. There is a REASON that schools in particular, and malls and movie theaters are the scenes of shootings rather than Police stations, the shooters KNOW that the chance of there being an armed citizen is low. Police stations on the other hand, are FULL of armed people, trained to use their weapons, no coincidence there. Maybe someday, the anti-gunners will realize that gun control laws are an exercise in futility, Criminals are by definition, those that have no regard for laws, and the ones that would follow the laws, regardless of how little sense they make, are the ones that don't need said laws to prevent them from doing what the laws prohibit, anyway. Doug
I have to say that was more entertaining to read than the poster you were attempting to rescue. However, bottom line is you have zero training going up against another human that is armed and it shows in your verbage and thought process here. I think if my life were on the line I would not try to out think someone holding a gun that is more than likely mentally ill. If you want to ascribe a rational thought process to them, your welcome to absorb the bullets. Your statement about Police Departments or Cops at their place of work not being engaged directly by mentally ill active shooters is also false historically.
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