I am strongly recommending this because in terms of passenger capacity, this gets the greatest capacity for the least expenditure.
.1. The station structures in Manhattan are equipped to handle double the number of passengers they have now. They are generously proportioned, have direct connections with four north-south subway lines and PATH and an underground one-block connection with the remeaining line. Very little in the way of station improvements would be needed.
.2. A ten-car train of B-Division subway cars can easily handle 2000 passengers in one train with 60 seated and 140 standning in each car. With current signaling on the existing line, more than 30 trains can be handled each way in one hour, giving a one-direction capacity of 60,000 passengers per hour. This loading will be balanced against the loads coming the other way from Brooklyn, which would in any case be reverse commutors, and there should be no overcrowding.
.3. The 14th Street tunnel is alreay headed in the right direction, has no other subway or active railroad lines to cross under before reaching its own Hudson River underwater tubes.
.4. B-Division 60-foot rolling stock is easily compatible with standard railroad equipment, like the orginal Staten Island cars under B&O ownership. In New Jersey, out of the tunnel, new or existing track can be shared with nighttime freight operation.
.5. Should the Amtrak tunnels be shut down in an emergency, this capacity can handle the traffic.
On the other hand, extending the No. 7 would involve major station upgrades in Manhattan to handle the increased traffic, would involve more difficult construction, and end up with less capacity, because of the smaller A-Division-type cars and equpment less compatible with regular raiilroad equipment.
A proposal to extend Hudson-Bergan light rail to Manhattan seems absolutely rediculous to me, despite my deep love for this development of streetcar technology. Any new rail Hudson River crossing should be designed for heavy rapid transit or commuter rail. Sure, light rail could provide the same capacity with the special tunnel with proper signalling and APC, but the rest of the system that it connects to could not in any way support such close spacing of trains.
Possible destinations in New Jersey are Secacus Junction, Journal Square, Jersy City, or Newark. or Newark Airport. The extra fare for New Jersey passengers can be handled by pay-leave control as well as pay-enter.
For major capacity increase, this is the most economical approach.
daveklepperA proposal to extend Hudson-Bergan light rail to Manhattan seems absolutely rediculous to me, despite my deep love for this development of streetcar technology. Any new rail Hudson River crossing should be designed for heavy rapid transit or commuter rail. Sure, light rail could provide the same capacity with the special tunnel with proper signalling and APC, but the rest of the system that it connects to could not in any way support such close spacing of trains.
Not that this needs much cheerleading from me, but there's another point you ought to make in this paragraph.
Any prospective extension of New Jersey light rail to Manhattan would have to terminate on the west side of Manhattan, and in order to support any sort of rush-hour operation would have to have considerable yard or storage space OFF-PLATFORM or else support expensive largely-empty-counterflow train operations out of Manhattan during the morning rush and decided congestion-related slowdowns if anything interrupts traffic for the afternoon rush. The situation is already bad enough with the Empire Connection layover yard in that area.
A significant advantage of the 14th Street approach, as for the 7th Avenue approach before it, is that no 'dwell' in Manhattan is needed at all. The problem then is going to be how ownership vs. operation of the cars involved would be worked out. Were you planning a different arrangement of interior space for some of the cars, and would New Jersey be paying some pro rata share of cars operating through to some point east of Manhattan?
The easiest legal solution would be for the Port Authority to "buy" the line from the Transit Authority, since the PA is a joint NY-NJ operation. If it became part of the PATH system, fare arrangements and turnstyles would be arrangted so that travelers boarding in Brooklyn and Manhattan would continue to have free transfer to NY subways, but passengers from New Jersey would pay appopriate fairs when boarding with the subway fare portion going to the TA and the larger balance considered the PATH fare. No reason for the equipment to be any different than standard B-Division equipment, bedcause the trip times are short, like existinig PATH, which now uses the same seating arrangement as A-Division cars and same door arrangement. It would be very logical for existing PATH, with its small cars and tight slow curves to end at Journal Square and let 14th Street take over the line to Harrison, Newark and Newark Airport. This would allow a doubling of capacity from Newark and really provide the safety valve for the Amtrak Hudson Tunnels. If two pocket tracks were reestablished south of the Atlantic Ave Sta. south of Broadway E, NY, in Brooklyn, and every other rush hour train short-turned there, a 90 second headway would be possible, and the comfortable standing capacity raised to 90,000 passengers each wasy in an hour. Two New Jersey destinations with a flying junction would be Secaucus and Newark Airport via Journal Square and Newark. 90 second headway service, 40 trains/hour, would be an emergency operation in case one or two Amtrak tunnels were closed, but the equipment and facilities would be available. Note that the "L" 14th Street Canarsie Line is a stand-alone, not sharing tracks (anymore) with any other route. It the past there were some Broadway Brooklyn locals from Chambers Street across the Willliamsburg Bridge to Canarsie, and some "13" trains from 8th and 14th to Lefferts Avenue duirng rush hours, but that stopped when the "A" started running to Lefferts.
Great idea! The problem is getting the Port Authority on board. It would make sense to eventually combine PATH with the NYC Subway and create a network in New Jersey. Politics...
I've always wondered how different transit in New York City would be if Hudson, Essex, Passaic, Bergen, and Union counties were part of the Empire State.
How about using the Vince Lombardi Park and Ride on the NJ Turnpike as the destination with a buildout to the Meadowlands Stadium(MetLife Stadium?). This could also serve the Manhattan Transfer(Frank Lautenburg) on NJ Transit.
Rgds IGN
With a stop at Sacaucus makes sense
Have never ridden the 14 st line but this poster likes the idea. The #7 trains never did seem to be a good solution. Just have not liked the IRT "A" type tinker toy cars and their limited capacity. Also suspected #7 line would be overcrowded from new station to Grand central station.
By Using "B" type trains their longer wheel base would allow for a smoother and faster ride.
Suggest that if this alternative is ever to proceed that all tunnels, clearances, siding lengths, pocket tracks, platform length, etc be built for longer & bigger trains.
blue streak 1Have never ridden the 14 st line but this poster likes the idea. ... By Using "B" type trains their longer wheel base would allow for a smoother and faster ride. Suggest that if this alternative is ever to proceed that all tunnels, clearances, siding lengths, pocket tracks, platform length, etc be built for longer & bigger trains.
In addition, the platforms on the L line would have to be extended to 615'. Currently, this line, as well as the BMT's former "Eastern Division" lines, were never extended in the 1960's to take 10-car trains of 60' cars. You could run 9-car trains, but whether the next order for B-division cars would have a mix of 5-car and 4-car sets is questionable. Some of the other ideas expressed here make sense; there is still the question of the "Hudson Ocean", where planning stops at the NY-NJ state line.
Certain that some of the 14th St. platforms are already at 615ft., length, such as 8th and 14th.
Doesn't the M, with its very heavy Queens Blvd. local ridership, run wih 10 60 ft cars or 8 75s?
If the line runs to NJ, new cars will be needed anyway,, so nine-car trains certainly are feasible.
The political issues of such a line have been raised and may prove to be insurmountable, especially in light of Governor Christie's recent problems. An issue that has not been addressed is where would the money come from? Another tunnel under the Hudson is going to be quite expensive and I'm not sure that even the Port Authority could find a way to pay for this proposal.
Bringing a New York entity into the Garden State is rediculous. If there has to be a rapid transit system then the Port Authority is already in place. That should save decades of time and millions of dollars right off the top. Next, the PA already has PATH with four tunnels under the North River which are probalby a help but not the answer. It seems an uptown Manhatten line is what is in mind. So, extend the PATH from 33rd St north and west back to NJ and then loop it south on either side of Union Hill to Hoboken if on the east side of the hill or to Marion Jct. in JC to Journal Sq. if to the west of the hill. AND/OR if west, use some of the old Erie branches into the Oranges and other west of the Passaic River communities. Not giving it right to the PA will cost billions of dollars and billions of policital rhetorical words and decades if not a whole century to finalize.
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Henry, building a new tunnel for the tiny cars of PATH or the No.7 Line is what is rediculous. My 14th St. Proposal started off with the selling of the Canarsie Line to the Port Authority and having it interchange with PATH at Journal Square and taking over the PATH from their to Newark and Newark Airport. Large B-Division-type cars means lots of capacity. The 14th Street Line alraady has most of the expensive construction done, other than the tunnels under the river.
My concern is not so much as to what is done but who should do it. You've got a Federal government charged with overseeing interstate commerce, two state governments charged with intrastate affairs, then how many counties, cities, towns, agencies, etc. each fighting to be heard, to be part of running the thing, or not wanting anything to do with it. For all of them to hammer something out will take decades, lies, mudslinging, some facts somewhere, in order to maybe come to a consensus which most likely will be that something should be done and so another handful of decades or so will ensue and we'll be listening to Hamilton, Frank and Reyonolds song of the year 2525. My point is that the Port of Authority is an existing agency working in both states, authority in both states, and already the owner/operator of the PATH. So, give the job of creating and building an interstate transit system through them and PATH. Yeah, selling them the Carnarsie line sounds like a great idea for starters. Getting it into Journal Sq. is good, too. Here is an opportunity to loop through Brooklyn and under NY Bay or over the Verrizno Bridge to Staten Island to NJ either using the old B&O alignment then north past Newark Airport and either to the PATH station at Newark or a separate line to Jersey City. On the other end, from 14th St the line could go west to Journal Sq or somehow north on the WestSide then under the North River to either the east or west side of Union Hill to connect back with PATH or establish new lines on old or new rights of way in NJ. But, the point again is, that only the Port Authority has the legal standing right now, or at least the best legal standing right now, to be the agency to do it,
I’m riding with Henry on that first train from Brooklyn to Staten Island ever. If Chris Christie don’t ruin it somehow.
Minor correction: "In the Year 2525" was performed by Zager & Evans (one-hit wonders).
You are right. I should be ashamed of myself but am too old to remember. how.
We agree that the Port Authority is the agency to do it. I also like your proposal for implementing the old Bay Ridge to Staten Island Tunnel plans. I think it should be built to large clearances for use by the freight network, Contrail Shared Assets and/or New York and Atlantic, between 1 and 5 AM to finally give Long Island and Connecticut a decent freght cbnnection to the South and West. Similarly, the Bay Ridge Branch can handle freight 1-5AM, and at other times be tied into the PATH 14th Street - Canarsie Line at East New York.There would of course be an interchange station (or two) with the existing 4th Avenue services, N and R.
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