trackrat888 Railroad Workers are covered by Railroad Retirement Board and Transit Personel are not. SEPTA and David Gunn lerned the hard way by trying to convert the Fox Chase Line into a line operated by Transit instead of railroad workers. The mecanical department then refused to fix the RDCs unless they were opperated by railroad unions and Conrail Employees and the service died when all the RDC units failed either on the own or with some "Help" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Chase_Rapid_Transit_Line
Railroad Workers are covered by Railroad Retirement Board and Transit Personel are not. SEPTA and David Gunn lerned the hard way by trying to convert the Fox Chase Line into a line operated by Transit instead of railroad workers. The mecanical department then refused to fix the RDCs unless they were opperated by railroad unions and Conrail Employees and the service died when all the RDC units failed either on the own or with some "Help" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Chase_Rapid_Transit_Line
But then you have the case of Tri Rail. Clearly a commuter railroad. When it was operated by Herzog their employees did not pay into Railroad Retirement. This fact was frustrating to Amtrak as at that time they were still in operating commuter systems under contract. But without Railroad Retirement expenses Herzog under bid them. Not sure about the current situation with Veola as tbe contractor.
As far as I know, the only legal requirement in the Railway Labor Act regarding union representation is that representation is to be along craft lines.
I agree. There is no legal requirement for one or another union to represent any railroad or transit property. Most of the differences can be explained by history, who unionized and when.
Again I ask that you give documentation to support your statements. Or at least don't mix up cause and effect. What evidence do you have to support your contention that separate unions represent transit vs railroad workers because of the Railroad Retirment Board?
I'd be amazed to find out that there's any legislated requirement that says they must be separate unions.
Patrick Boylan
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What i ment to say is that there are unions that represent Bus,Subway and Trolleycar Light Rail and there are unions that Rep Class 1,2 and 3 railroads and neigther shal the two meet as one is covered by railroad retirement and the other is not
The Transport Workers Union (TWU) local 234 represents workers in the City, Suburban and Frontier divisions. But another union, the United Transportation Union (UTU) Local 1594, represents bus, trolley and rail operators in SEPTA’s Victory division. This division operates the Norristown High Speed Line, Media/Sharon Hill trolleys and buses in parts of Montgomery and Delaware counties out of the 69th Street Transportation Center. Other unions, such as BLE represent engineers on heavy rail commuter lines.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
gardendance Please research your comments better. Where do you get your information that any union other than the United Transport Workers represents SEPTA Norristown High Speed Line employees?
Please research your comments better. Where do you get your information that any union other than the United Transport Workers represents SEPTA Norristown High Speed Line employees?
I 'second' this request. To my knowledge the ATU doesn't even have a local in the Philadelphia area.
South Shore pays into railroad retirement and is condisdered a Class 2 by the Railroad Retirement Board. SEPTA Norristown Line aka Norristown High Speed Line AKA Liberty Line is covered by Agalamated Transit Union and thus only eligible for Pension and Social Security. I guess it would have to be based on what the Federal Railroad Retirement Board considers a Bona-Fide railroad. Denver may regreat its Fast-Tracks Commuter Rail program for this very reason of having higher labor costs for what could have been a Subway Line to the Airport.
daveklepper Don't need to cover the details of the trip itself, but the circumstances that led you to ride it and the aftermath.
Don't need to cover the details of the trip itself, but the circumstances that led you to ride it and the aftermath.
Dave: In this clip I found today,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlr6Gwii4rc
around the one-minute mark, the Liberty Bell Line track, about 100 yards from my house in South Allentown, is being torn up on Friday September 7th, 1951.
I witnessed this very scene after coming home from high school in the afternoon (by bus, since I had ridden the local trolley home the day before) so must have been present but out of view. Hadn't realized before that there was film of it, so don't know who the photgrapher was. A sad scene then, and now a poignant memory, over 63 years later.
Dave: Here's more I just found on the Liberty Bell Limited last run:
http://articles.mcall.com/1986-09-07/news/2535450_1_trolley-buffs-liberty-bell-s-8th-clanging-bells
Gives more detail on how some fans thought an early evening trip would be the last run.
One thing I didn't include in my narrative here was that on the return trip the semaphore encountered at Lehigh Siding (2nd last northbound signal before Allentown) was horizontal and the light was out, thus not red as it should have been for that position, so we stopped, thus losing the momentum that would have been helpful for climbing South Mountain. Fred Enters had to call the dispatcher and learned that the signal power had been turned off prematurely, so got verbal clearance (or maybe had to write a train order, but I doubt it under the circumstances) to come in for the final entrance to Allentown, near 3AM on Friday September 7th 1951.
back to Sacramento Northern. Although regular interurban passenger service was discontiniued in early 1941, local streetcar service in Sacramento continued until sold to National City Lines in 1944. NCL also bought Pacific Gas and Electric's streetcar lines, and Central California Traction's one line. NCL operated the conbination as one system, including combining the SN and CCT lines into one. And rapidly converted everything to bus after WWII. Marysville-Uba City local service lasted until the end of 1945 or early 1946. Chico local service was actually extended north to the Air Force Base during WWII, and was the last five cent streetcar line in North America when discontinued in 1948 or 1949, with Birneys. For overhall the Chico and Marysville-Uba City local cars had to be equipped with temporary 3rd rail shoes, the only instance I know of where Birneys had such.
daveklepper you probably know that two Crandic cars were saved, one ex-C&LE, like all but 1030 of the Liberty Bells, at Branford, painted for C&LE, and the other ex-Indiana car at Union, restored as an Indiana car.
you probably know that two Crandic cars were saved, one ex-C&LE, like all but 1030 of the Liberty Bells, at Branford, painted for C&LE, and the other ex-Indiana car at Union, restored as an Indiana car.
Actually, four Crandic ex-C&LE cars were saved: #111 at Western Railway Museum in California (www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eX46F6-M08), #116 at Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven Connecticutt, #118 at Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport Maine, and #119 (restored to C&LE livery, but now tarped) in Ohio Railway Museum just outside Columbus. I've seen all of these but #111, and that vicariously via the link. The Crandic ex-IRR car #65 (http://cerablog.com/2013/03/26/a-tale-of-two-high-speeds/) is the one you're referring to in Union Illinois, restored to IRR livery (have seen it only briefly once) and including the MU couplers. I have a note that #110 and/or #117 may be at Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton Pennsylvania, though my note also says "not displayed". so I don't know the full story there. Never saw anything such on the few times I was up there.
P.S., Dave: Just noticed that the Trolley Talk articles on the Liberty Bell last run continue onto another page, so it's Issue 283, SEP-OCT 2006, pgs.12-14.
Not sure what you mean. I was a teenage fan and got a phone call around suppertime on September 6th 1951 from Gerhard Salomon, secretary of the Lehigh Valley Chapter of NRHS, that the stated evening would be the last run (the PA PUC that afternoon had given LVT permission for "temporary" abandonment, and LVT wasted no time). Gerhard was friends with Fred Enters, the motorman who'd taught us both to operate during late-night local runs out in the country (Lanark, Coopersburg). Enters was scheduled to be operator of the 11PM Limited to Norristown, and passed the word to Gerhard re the last run. So the few fans who'd gotten the word got on at LVT's Allentown Depot on S. 8th St just before 11PM. We got to Norristown about 1AM, turned around in the Rink siding loop, repositioned to the station, and left for the final return. The run would normally have terminated at Souderton but by that time all cars at that barn had been taken to Allentown. So we continued northbound, arriving at LVT's Fairview carbarn in Allentown about 3AM.
The next day LVT had crews tearing up the track at 3 locations. McKelvey's book has a picture of one such operation that I witnessed very near my house when I returned from HS the next day. LVT thus was going to make very sure that there would be no return from the "temporary" abandonment.
The only Liberty Bell Limited car that was saved from scrap was #1030, as stated earlier. The Wikipedia article on Lehigh Valley Transit and the article on Albertus Meyers Bridge have more info re the company and the interurban line.
Sacramento Northern is quite similar to Illinois Terminal. Both started out as interurbans but were eventually bought out by steam railroads for their freight traffic. Both wound up as dieselized freight operations and I believe that both gave up much of their interurban trackage in favor of trackage rights on the parallel steam railroads.
There are light rail lines that are interurban lines, already, but not of course classic interurban lines. The line from St. Louis to Bellville and beyond is certainly one. San Diego - San Ysirdro, coming up Norfolk - Virginia Beach, and possibly some of the Denver and Dallas lines. The fact that there are suburban houses and paved streets between downtowns doesn't remove the interurban classification, just is one more item that removes them from the classic catagory.
NJT Riverline- Could U please tell me bus service after the cutoff time? to Trenton to Camden?
MidlandMikeA recent NewsWire stort told of Seattle getting the funds to continue constructing light rail to the south on the Seattle-SeaTac Airport line. The line is to eventually reach Tacoma, which will make it an "interurban". The line also has some street running.
Well, sort of. The entire route is urban, but it will connect two distinct city centers.
Despite its name, the "Interurban Electric Railway Company" in the San Francisco Bay area was definitely not an interurban, "classic" or otherwise. For its entire (and short) existence as an operating railroad (1934-1941), it was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Southern Pacific. Prior to 1934, it wasn't even a separate company - it was simply an electrified part of the larger SP system. The electric lines had been constructed (or converted from steam operation) by SP in the early 1900's as part of SP's own system and were operated as such (some segments of it were actually parts of the Central Pacific's original rail line to Oakland). The "Interurban Electric Railway" corporation was only created in 1934 as part of the fairly complex financial and operational arrangements for operation over the Bay Bridge (which began in 1939 and, for IER, ended in 1941). To my knowlege, IER was simply an operating entity. It didn't even own the rail lines it used - they remained the property of SP or Central Pacific.
As Dave mentions, SN reported to the ICC as a regular freight railroad. In fact, at the time of its discontinuance of passenger service (1941), it was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Western Pacific Ry, which had acquired its component parts in 1922 (the "old" Sacramento Northern from Sacramento to Chico) and 1927 (the San Francisco-Sacramento Railroad, formerly the Oakland, Antioch and Eastern) The two were merged into the "new" Sacramento Northern in 1928. WP's interest in these properties was primarily in their value as freight feeder lines, and they continued in this role after the passenger discontinuance. Some of SN still exists today in freight service, but not much. I'm not sure of this, but I believe that SN, as a company, remained in existence until merged out as part of the UP-MP-WP merger in the early 1980's.
The Key System had fairly extensive carload freight operations in the East Bay. Apparently because of this, the ICC determined in 1927 that the Key System was not an "interurban" railroad under Federal law, see Ex Parte No. 38, Rules for Testing of Other Than Steam Powered Locomotives, 122 ICC 414 at 426 (1927)
A recent NewsWire stort told of Seattle getting the funds to continue constructing light rail to the south on the Seattle-SeaTac Airport line. The line is to eventually reach Tacoma, which will make it an "interurban". The line also has some street running.
Dave, I forgot to add that there were no LVT freight trailers - all were powered. And I mistakenly said that all Liberty Bell cars were scrapped - - this is incorrect since parlor car #1030 (ex-IRR #55) went to Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine where it resides to this date. One of the founders of the Rockhill Trolley Museum in Rockhill Furnace PA (adjacent to East Broad Top narrow gauge RR Orbisonia station) owned a furniture factory in Allentown, and he built chairs and sofas to restore that car to its original parlor car configuration (LVT had put conventional coach seats in it in the late 1940s - - the furniture then probably went to decorate LVT offices). Seashore sometimes employs its elegance for their special events.
daveklepper is right about South Shore. The fact that it was built to steam railroad standards right from the start disqualifies it as a classic interurban. While it retains some interurban characteristics even now, it evolved into more of an electric railroad than an interurban beginning with Insull's purchase in 1925.
The Insull-era MU cars, especially the lengthened ones, would not have looked too out of place on the Reading or Lackawanna suburban lines. They certainly fit in rather nicely on the IC between 115th Street and Randolph Street.
River Line: interurban, but not classic. Light Rail, but not normal light rail
South Shore: interurban, but no longer classic (if ever) Commuter and freight rail, but not normal, just distinctive
uusual characteristics can make railfanning more interesting
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