Room for a suitcase on an early morning train into Waterloo? Maybe if you used a crowbar. I used to stay in North Cheam and had the option of a SW train from Worcestor Park, but no way could I fit on and I'm not a big guy. I took the Northern tube from Morden, at least I had a seat. When I arrive in London a friend meets me and we have a couple of pints at a pub in Feltham and avoid the crowd.
54light15 Buslist, and anyone else flying to Heathrow, to avoid the long trek on the Piccadilly line to Paddington, or the expensive Heathrow Express, why not take the bus to Feltham station, then it's South West Trains via Richmond to Waterloo which is more convenient if you're staying in that part of London which is still a trek from Paddington. Especially when jet lagged.
Buslist, and anyone else flying to Heathrow, to avoid the long trek on the Piccadilly line to Paddington, or the expensive Heathrow Express, why not take the bus to Feltham station, then it's South West Trains via Richmond to Waterloo which is more convenient if you're staying in that part of London which is still a trek from Paddington. Especially when jet lagged.
Unfortunatly as I said our flat was across the river (north) from the O2, east of canary wharf. So getting to Waterloo would still require a Jubilee line trip to Canningtown and DLR to East India, so still a 4 seat ride and not step less, so not an attractive alternative for me. Plus I'd be worried about luggage space on an early morning train to Waterloo.
Here in Toronto the Union-Pearson Express is starting next year and likely most executives will share a limo as it's only $50-55.00 to Pearson from downtown, whereas the Express is going to cost a stupid $29.00 a person. I won't be riding it to the airport, it's only a TTC token to get there from Kipling station. Coming back I would take it as I would only be going to the station at Bloor and Dundas West as I live near there and for one person, whatever the fare is would be cheaper than a 50 buck limo ride.
One of my last trips to Europe before moving to Jerusalem, was for am Audio Engineering Society convention in Berlin. I recall using the airport bus to the in-town air terminal, I think near the old Zoo W. Berlin station, then finding which regular transit bus went by the hotel. After the convention, Wolfgang Einhart insisted on showing around E. Berlin, where I had not been. He delivered me to the old E. Berlin Hauptbanhoff for a train that would cross Berlin, stop at the Zoo station, and then turn south to Frankfurt. At Frankfurt I used the tram subway to get to my hotel, the next day the tram subway (Stattbahn) to the West End synagogue and back, then again back to the train station, and then the train (Schnellbahn) to the airport. I though the Frankfort public transit system was stops, and now it is supposed to be even better.
The synagogue and the Polish-run Kosher restaurant were within walking distances of the hotel in Berlin. Otherwise Iwould have used public transportation.
Way off topic but just for reference I stayed at a place in London just opposite the river from the O2. Great for London City airport flights (20 min) But a haul from Heathrow. Remember I'm towing a great big Samsonite roller bag!
Trip to Heathrow consisted of a 200 ft walk to the East India Dock Station on the DLR, elevator up to the mezzanine as there were the only Oyster check in kiosks there then back to the on elevator to an east bound DLR service to Canning Town ( best connection goining in the wrong direction). At Canning Town take an escalater down to the Jubilee Line (again suitcase in tow). Now there are several places to transfer to the Backerloo but Baker Street is the best as it's basically cross platform and step less. Now at Paddington up the escalator and its on the Heathrow Express.
My my bottom line is that a one seat ride ain't essential but a step free one is. ( My company would have paid for a limo if I wanted but I didn't have a travel budgt enough for that repeatedly, plus i'm a bit Swedish).
NWK and LGA are used by BUSINESS TRAVELERS leaving from their offices. An Ideal fit. JFK on the other paw is mostly for INTERNATIONAL TRAVELERS. These would be leaving from home, and arriving at the airport with more baggage via automobile, taxi or liomzine. No need for better rail transport there.
NWK and LGA are used by BUSINESS TRAVELERS leaving from their offices. An Ideal fit.
JFK on the other paw is mostly for INTERNATIONAL TRAVELERS. These would be leaving from home, and arriving at the airport with more baggage via automobile, taxi or liomzine. No need for better rail transport there.
Have you been to JFK lately? The NYC travel market isn't that neatly compartmentalized anymore. There are more than just international flights at JFK. Don't forget Jet Blue operates a hub there, with most of their flights serving domestic (interior US) cities. Further, both DL and AA fly to many domestic locations, though they are timed and marketed to mostly carry connecting passengers to the international flights.
i have advocagted for long time connecticut - trenton through commuter train service, parallel to amtrak but with no amenities and commuter capacity and spartan but decent comfort. ditto hudson div - lirr through service. both with allow better use of penn station capacity and remember the fl9's did have third rail shoes that worked, when maintained, for both types of third rails.
for that matter, the irt and bmt third rail shoes worked both on elevated and subway type third rail when the side protection board was ommited on the elevated third rail, as on the culver line.
and one-seat rides between kennedy and laguardia would require a connection from the williamsburg bridge line to the bmt broadway line, similar to the connection the houston street sixth avenue line used now by the 'm'. very very short distance but highly complex tunnel and track construction.
CSSHEGEWISCH And what happens if your connecting flight is at Newark?
And what happens if your connecting flight is at Newark?
Dave already answered this, I think, but one answer would be to transfer to NEC equipment at the 'transfer station' mentioned, and ride to Liberty via the existing service, stop, monorail (or shuttle bus from Newark Penn) etc. Still a two-seat ride, but all rail (and presumably with working elevators/escalators for baggage).
Adapting Lion's plan, you could use 'off-peak' LIRR equipment staged at that location and operate it (with swap to NJT crews or the kind of arrangement Metro-North has for its Graham Line trains) out to the same place. *Technically* you might even be able to run some of these trains through NYP without stopping, to optimize platform usage or other logistics, under the partial assumption that much of the NYC transit that serves the NYP facilities can serve the 'transfer' location about as conveniently... perhaps using routes that are less directionally congested?
One thing I find interesting here is that the proposed transfer station also has access to either of the 'proposed' routes to the '4th airport' -- up the Empire Connector and River Line, presumptively over the Tappan Zee; or via the Graham Line (and whatever last-mile shuttling is used to access the facility from that direction). So you'd have the long-distance part as a 'two-seat' ride to any of the facilities, with fairly easy signage and transfer between any origin/destination pair of airports that might be in the mix...
That might be good enough.
for laguardia, which now lacks rail service of any sort, but which once had a streetcar line to brooklyn, an extension of the astoria elevated line (n) along the shore would work. add to it an interchange station of the nec on the hgbridge approach to the elevated station immediately below, and you have a really useful facility. if this were done, the kennedy express would then add a stop at canal street, one stop north of the air terminal at chambers street, for direct transfer to and from the n train to and from laguardia, and you have a two-seat all-rail ride between the two airports.
Lion, rather than try to rationalize who would use rail transit to LaGuardia Airport, I just look at all the other airports with that option. The history has been, if you build it, people use it, including airport workers. Can you give an example of an airport rail project which has not panned out.
Lion, my idea posted earlier and in all-caps for easy recognition, has a one-seat ride to and from each terminal and from and to a Manhattan destination within easy walking distance of many of the destinations of business travelers to NY. And it can be implemented economically with minimum changes and additions to existing rail infrastructure. Cabs and limousines do get tied up in traffic.
Have to toot Atlant's horn. The last I heard the airport station of Matra has 10% of the total boardings of its rail system. They have assistants at boarding gates, baggage pass thrus, manned ticket windows, other ammenities. That was before some of the last extensions..
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For the business traveler, nothing beats a (company paid) limo that arrives at your door with plenty of time to spare...and delivers you right to the departure terminal.
MidlandMikeCleveland airport has had transit service for almost 50 years. Chicago, Seattle, Portland, etc, have transit service. It sounds like Newark airport will get PATH service, so it's already coming to a Port Authority airport.
New York already HAS both subway and rail service to JFK. The Subway to Howard Beach, and the LIRR to Jamaica station, SINCE THE AIR-TRAIN IS PART OF THE AIRPORT.
It is a matter of logistics and the number of airports involved. Cleveland has ONE airport, both short-distance and long-flight customers use it. Some may arrive from downtown by train, others will come from the suburbs by car. Businessmen will not bother with a train or subway, but will take a cab. In New York they can take a helicopter since cabs would be too tedious.
There is simply not enough need in NYC for better airport service unles it can be done on the fly as it were. Even if there were a on seat connector to downtown or midtown, you would still need to switch to another vehicle to complete your trip. The return for it is just not there.
Other cities are other stories.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I think someday the Port Authority will pick up on my idea, earlier post on this thread. And the articulated car I propose would be a good replacement for the present two-car trains by allowing passenger and crew movement along the length of the unit, not possible with the present two-car trains,
BroadwayLion ... Except as I outlined, as an extension of railroad service, NOBODY is going to drop a dime for more service to airports. ROAR
...
Except as I outlined, as an extension of railroad service, NOBODY is going to drop a dime for more service to airports.
Why not? Cleveland airport has had transit service for almost 50 years. Chicago, Seattle, Portland, etc, have transit service. It sounds like Newark airport will get PATH service, so it's already coming to a Port Authority airport.
from what i understand, njt crews do not currently operate over the hb bridge, amtrak crews operate penn sta. - new rochelle, metro north crews east of there, and njt crews west of penn. or has this been changeds?
Labor negotiations for the sort of arrangement proposed by the Lion would be daunting unless you allowed for crew changes at Penn Station.
WizlishWouldn't there need to be some harmonization of CBTC and other equipment to get this to work? And wouldn't LIRR involvement require both catenary and third-rail power capability on all equipment?
No. LIRR type third rail would be extended to Newark Airport.
As for NJT... they aloready operate on the Hells Gate Bridge, the tracks that they would use to LGA do not exist yet, and so could be fitted out any way you like.
By running surplus equipment to the airpors means that new platform assignments would not be required. A train comes in from New Jersey, and it continues out to Long Island for layup in Sunnyside, it may as well go a few more miles to LGA. Instead of laying up at West Side Yard, some LIRR trans can continue onto Newark.
And while we're talking use of LIRR equipment off peak, hauled by something non-third-rail equipped ... how about reaching the 'fourth airport' (Stewart) perhaps with the DPs so beloved by some posters on the Forum? Pity there is no good way to use the LIRR stock directly up the Hudson line (via the Empire connection) and then over tracks actually installed where they belong on the new Tappan Zee bridge ... where is Euclid with a workable system for over/underrunning contacts when it's needed?
BroadwayLionIF a connection could be made from the Hell Gate loop over the Grand Central Parkway, it could reach LGA. Trains going there would be operated by NEW JERSEY TRANSIT. Likewise direct rail extension to Newark Airport could be handled by the LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD.
I presume you mean they would be operated by crews under some sort of reciprocal operating arrangement ... the way we were proposing to run trains on the 7 line extension under the Hudson and on into New Jersey.
Wouldn't there need to be some harmonization of CBTC and other equipment to get this to work? And wouldn't LIRR involvement require both catenary and third-rail power capability on all equipment? Were you going to arrange to have the LIRR moves pulled by NJT motors with HEP connection west of NYP as the 'airport shuttle' (presumably to a connection with the monorail etc. at the Liberty NEC stop?) -- that might be an interesting contribution to the AEM-7 thread...
zkr123 Will MTA ever have rail express service from Penn Station to JFK and/or LGA? Similar to Heathrow Express in London.
Will MTA ever have rail express service from Penn Station to JFK and/or LGA? Similar to Heathrow Express in London.
Short answer: No.
AirTrain is funded by airport revenues and by regulation may not be used for or connect with mass transit. Those were the restrictions on the funds.
Subway to JFK or LGA. No, never will happen. And that is not proper.
IF a connection could be made from the Hells Gate loop over the Grand Central Parkway, it could reach LGA. Trains going there would be operated by NEW JERSEY TRANSIT. Likewise direct rail extenssion to Newark Airport could be handled by the LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD.
What is going on here? Once these trains pass through NYP they are extras that are in the way. Easy enough to move they yards to the airports: Instant service and equipment is moved out of the way. No fares are collected on the trains but only at the airports. Reduces crew requirements.
narig01Another thought extend the Airtran up Van Wyck Blvd to the Independent Line. Also I would think someone was thinking about continuing up the Van Wyck to the Grand Central Parkway to LaGuardia. It would be nice to see NYC use expressways and parkways for rapid transit. It would be a nice way to bury Robert Moses. Thx IGN
It would be nice to see the service extended past LaGuardia all the way to Manhattan.
AIR TRAIN ALREADY CONNECTS TO THE IND AT THE JFK-HOWARD BEACH STATION. BUT THAT IS NOT A ONE SEAT RIDE TO MANHATTAN.
THE MTA BUS WAS DISCONTINUED WHEN AIR TRAIN WENT INTO OPERATION, AT LEAST THAT WAS WHAT I SURMISED AT THE TIME.
NYC had an airport shuttle on the subway, but it was IIRC discontinued due to low ridership.
THERE ARE CAPACITY ISSUES AT PENN, AND THERE ALWAY WILL BE EVEN WITH ALL PLANNED EXPANSION.
I HAVE PROSED A FEASIBLE LOW COST SOLUTION. THE MANHATAN TERMINAL WOULD BE THE PRESENT J AND Z CHAMBERS STREET STATION, WHICH HAS SIX TRACKS OF WHICH ONLY TWO ARE NEEDED FOR CURRENT OPERATIONS. IT IS MONUMENTAL, PLENTY OF ROOM INSIDE TO ADD AIRLINE CHECKIN FACILITIES AND RETAIL BUSINESSES, EASY WALKING DISTANCE FROM WALL STREET AND PATH, GOOD SUBWAY AND BUS CONNECTIONS, AND CURBSIE LOADING AND UNLOADING AVAILABLE FOR TAXIS AND TOURIST BUSES. THE J, Z, AND M LINE OVER THE WILLIAMSBURG BRIDGE HAS EXTRA CAOACTY A SHORT ELEVATED CONNECTION WOULD LINK THE JAMAICA AVE EL ON EAST FUJLTON ST WITH THE LIBERTY AVEBUE EL JUST EAST OF GRANT AVENUE STATION, THE ROCKAWAY LINE WOULD HAVE FLYOVERS LINKED TO THE PRESENT JFK AIRTRAIN WHOSE CLEARANCES IN FACT WERE BASED ON B DIVISION STANDARS NO LINEAR MOTORS, BUT OTHERWISE THE EQUIPMENT WOULD BE COMPATIBLE BOTH WITH STANDARD SUBWAY OPERATION AND THE AIRTRAIN. TRAINS WOULD BE COMPOSED OF 90FT LONG, LONG AS TWO OF THE JFK CARS, THEIR NORMAL TRAIN, THREE BODY FOUR TRUCK ARTICULATED UNITES WITH DOORS MATCHING THE PLACEMENT OF THE JFL CARS, WORKING OUT TO TWO DOORS ON EACH SIDE FOR THE CENTER BODY AND ONE ON EACH SIDE OF THE END BODIES. THE TRAINS WOULD CONSIST OF ONE TO FOUR OF THESE UNITS DEPENDING ON TRAFFIC AND RUN EVER HALF HOUR. WHEN MORE THAN ONE UNIT IS RUN, EACH UNIT WOULD BE SIGNED FOR PARTICUL KENNEDY STATIONS AND ONLY ITS DOORS WOULD OPEN AT THAT STATION, THUS AVOIDING LENGTHENING THE PLATFORMS ON THE JFK CIRCLE. IN ADDITION TO CHAMBERS STREET, POSSIBLY ANOTHER SPECIAL STATON WOULD BE BUILD AT EAST NEW YORK EASTERN PARKWAY. TAKING A FRACTION OF THE EAST NEW YORK YARD ADJACENT TO THE ELEVATED ON EAST FULTON STREET, J AND Z.
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