Differentiation Streetcar (tram) from LRV

[Kiwigerd]

As a many decade long fan of rail bound city traffic and having lived nearly all of my life in big cities operationg metro systems of all kind I can tell you that there is no safe distinction of them at all. In Frankfurt/Main you will find a tram line that is using articulated 2 car trains running in the middle of the streets, the same goes for Hannover in Germany whilst on the other hand we have a typical light rail line close to where I live now near Vienna, Austria that features long stretches of private right of way with crossbucks and signal lights and sometimes even half bars protecting crosses and yet part of the fleet is made of quite ordinary streetcars that mingle even with diesel powered local freight trains sharing some of their tracks. These streetcars are able to use different voltages, they use tracks of ordinary tram lines with low voltage on the way to downtown within city limits and a higher powered one on their own overland line. Having said this I can think of one criterion that probably could be used for differentiation, thats the operating and top speeds. Normal street cars typically are operation with speeds up to 35 mph (60 kph) while LRV operate on speeds of between 40 and 55 mph, also their stops are further apart and their cars are always bi-directional whereas streetcars used in many cities only have one operator cabin and doors on one side only. Big exception to this is Melbourne where all cars are bi-directional as they don't use loops at the end of their lines.

[Kiwigerd]

Sorry, this was meant to be a reply to the thread of "modern streetcars". I now placed it there but seem to be unable to delete this posting here. Maybe the admin could do that, thank you.

[wjstix]

At least in the USA, a streetcar runs in the street, along with automobile traffic. Autos run in front of it, behind it, and along side it. LRV lines are normally dedicated right-of-ways, running on one side of the road or between the lanes. There are dividers so automobiles can't cross the LRV's track except at designated areas like street crossings.

This is the new University Avenue "Green Line" LRV between Minneapolis and St.Paul MN, running near the University of Minnesota on a dedicated two-track right-of-way, with traffic lanes on either side of it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Green_Line%2C_University_of_Minnesota%2C_May_2014.jpg/300px-Green_Line%2C_University_of_Minnesota%2C_May_2014.jpg

...and here's a shot a few miles east on University Avenue in St.Paul, taken during the days of the Twin City Lines streetcars c.1945. You can see a streetcar in the middle distance, running on the street along with autos.

http://www.universityavenuehistory.com/images/UniversityAvelookingWestfromSnellingStPaul_c1945_MNHS.jpg

[Kiwigerd]

Yes, of course, I quite agree. The situation in the US is maybe a little different from the situation in Europe. Generally, US cities tend to have wider streets than most of the older European cities. However there seems to be no rule without exception. There are streetcar lines in Melbourne, AUS where the streetcars (articulated low floor trams) run on separate right of way in the middle of broad streets, separated from auto traffic like you have descrived. Vienna also has such a line that actually is elevated over a mile or so and is passing a large industrial district, whereas on the other hand, as I had described, this light rail line does street running on part of its route. Thank you for the pictures.

[wjstix]

Of course, part of it is salesmanship. Streetcar = old, wood, slow "Toonerville Trolleys". LRV = modern, fast, clean, streamlined. Trying to get government to back a new system, you want to make it sound new, not re-creating a museum line. You can sell calamari for a lot more than you can cooked squid....

[daveklepper]

Above sound and correct and proven in practice.   Exceptions are heritage systems, SF F Line, New Orleans, Tampa, Kenosha, and where a "down-home-flavor informaiity is cultivated -- Portland, OR.

Sometimes the nostalgia flavor is effective.   "We should never have gottten rid of streetcars, let us bring them back."

But most of the time wjtix is on the mark.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Light rail seems to fall somewhere on the continuum between streetcars and rapid transit, containing elements of both.  Toronto streetcars, which are almost exclusively street running, are described as light rail vehicles, as are the cars on NJ Transit's Newark subway, which is private right-of-way.

[desertdog]

wjstix

Of course, part of it is salesmanship. Streetcar = old, wood, slow "Toonerville Trolleys". LRV = modern, fast, clean, streamlined. Trying to get government to back a new system, you want to make it sound new, not re-creating a museum line. You can sell calamari for a lot more than you can cooked squid....

Your point is very well taken. It was not that many decades ago that public officials were selling the notion that streetcars were old fashioned and busses were the future of local surface transportation. Hence, the various euphemisms for the same or nearly same thing as what we had well into the 1950's.

John Timm