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Problems on Metro North

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Posted by henry6 on Sunday, January 26, 2014 2:42 PM

I wish he would.   But Christie already has tapped Turnpike Toll Booth Betty, head of the Turnpike Authority to do the honors....got keep it away from railroaders and in the hands of political animals you know.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:52 PM

henry6

No matter what is said here, MNRR seems to have a better operation than sister LIRR and cousin NJT in that order.  I check the web site delay reports several times a day and ride at least one of the lines NYC area railroads at least once a month.  MNRR seems to have the best customer communications of the three and the fewest disruptions of service of the three.  They report delays, explain the problems and the solutions clearly and quickly and completely.  

perhaps the chairman who is retiring from MNRR could be persuaded to go to NJT ? ?

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 6:47 PM

No matter what is said here, MNRR seems to have a better operation than sister LIRR and cousin NJT in that order.  I check the web site delay reports several times a day and ride at least one of the lines NYC area railroads at least once a month.  MNRR seems to have the best customer communications of the three and the fewest disruptions of service of the three.  They report delays, explain the problems and the solutions clearly and quickly and completely.  They are quick to provide bustitution when necessary and explain all.  LIRR is a close second but they suffer from more equipment failures and from a very diverse and far flung system.  They do have gaps in communications at time and gaps in service.  NJT is almost clueless in handling communications and providing information and solutions leaving customers standing on the platforms either scratching their heads or heading to the buses.  They have equipment problems and train which never reach their destinations and those which never pull out.  If the PA system isn't working at any given station customers are marooned on the platform.  There have been several instances in the past two or three weeks where customers could have been accommodated  if someone who knows railroading and service had made a decision rather than allowing customers standing on a cold station platform for over an hour when NJT had an hour before that to make simple plans and act.  No, MNRR shines in the New York area when it comes to operating a railroad with service and communications instead of  just trying to run trains.

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:39 PM

Overmod
Remember that to have a "Titanic"-style disaster, you need three things:  massive damage, inadequate safeguards, and 'too slow' a remedial response. 

Perhaps add #4: an unrealistic confidence in being invulnerable that leads to arrogantly dismissing any threats - "The Unsinkable Titanic."

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 3:12 PM

Amen brother, there's too much at stake now. 

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 25, 2014 3:07 PM

Firelock76
Look at what happened to Target.

Or, far more significantly, to Iran's enrichment centrifuge code.

One likely source for a 'digital Titanic' in my opinion, is potential malicious code in the firmware of Internet routers, and in networks of silent DDoS botnets.  Remember that to have a "Titanic"-style disaster, you need three things:  massive damage, inadequate safeguards, and 'too slow' a remedial response.  Our 'cyberfoes' have had a great deal of time to determine what the effective equivalent in context of these things are, and how to get them in place for zero-day or whatever.

There are places where you can see some of these exploits being tested, if you know where to look.  I will not mention what they are, but we do watch them, and we do find approaches to keep the Internet workable should they occur in 'live fire'.  Let's just hope that this won't be like any of the other wars were at the beginning!

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:32 PM

One system was "disconnected" for service or something, and the people shutting down the other system did not know that fail-over was not working.

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Posted by Dakguy201 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:47 AM

I wonder when, or perhaps if, the backup system was tested.  The operation appears sloppy enough that I think it possible no routine testing occurred.  A backup system that isn't tested might just as well not exist!

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:54 AM

Coronel Mass Ejection!  So that's what CME is!  Thank you gentlemen, it's a wasted day if I haven't learned something new.  And up till now if someone mentioned "coronel mass ejection"  to me I would have thought it referred to throwing a cigar butt out a car window.

I was only marginal on science in school, that's why I got into history.

And what could cause a "digital Titanic"?  CME possibly, but I'd be more concerned with cyber-attacks. Just when you think you're safe, along comes some gnome somewhere to prove you're not.

Look at what happened to Target.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:46 AM

Firelock76
By the way, pardon my ignorance, what's "CME"?

Coronal mass ejection (from the Sun).  Acts like a slow-rising EMP (that's electromagnetic pulse); risetime in about the 10-second range.  Fast-acting isolation can work nicely, and Faraday-cage approaches can keep the charge/voltage away from the device traces.  Problem with modern semiconductors is that some of the internal vias act as antennas, and neither the critical voltage nor critical amperage to cause damage to the microcircuitry is very high.

The principal disaster that was supposed to come from one of these is damage to the power grid, for reasons related to obsolete transformer design and slow, foreign-sourced transformer replacement.  (This issue has been covered not only in the press but also in sensationalist thriller literature!).  Much of the problem has been quietly solved, in my opinion similar to Y2K, in the years since the trouble was first identified...

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:30 AM

Firelock76

By the way, pardon my ignorance, what's "CME"?

 
Read this Wikipedia.  Go down to history.  Not mentioned is how much problems occurred to the budding telegraph system.  IMHO telegraphs were much more robust than solid state electronics of today.  Only equipment in a fully shielded faraday cage may be protected.  Depending on its speed some protection can be implemented..  But the electric grid ? ?.  aluminum foil completely around an electronic device might protect it.
 
 
A past national geographic article a long dissertation on them.
 
In the history section of wiki read the Carrington link.  Its scary
 
Also Analog magazine had a science fact article on it. 
 
 
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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:54 AM

blue streak 1

Firelock76

Mark my words, one day there's going to be a "digital Titanic", and it won't be pretty.

But firelock when it happens you will not be able to gloat to the rest of us ! !
Do you think it will be  a   "CME"  ?

I won't be gloating brother.  It's a prediction I don't WANT to come true.  But the way things are going and people seem to be making themselves more and more dependent on the gadgets, well...

By the way, pardon my ignorance, what's "CME"?

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:30 AM

MNRR has no wayside signals except at interlockings.  Signal system is cab signal only.  So, that explains the lack of signal in that they are controlled by computer and induction of some kind.  Question is, were the home signals dark or just the cab signal system?

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:15 AM

henry6
And from all news reports and MNRR website announcements, yes, it appears the signal system went dark thus trains were instructed to continue at reduced speed to the next station.  While the overhead and third rail were energized and the trains had power so there was heat and lighting aboard.  I am not sure by any of these reports whether or not the switches were operable, though.  

Metro North has no wayside block signals, only home signals are left. All block signals are via in-track encoding (DCC ?)  with cab indication, and yes , the switches must be thrown by the computer.

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:59 AM

blue streak 1

BaltACD

When it comes to moving trains -

Protect, then authorize!

When the computer aided signal system crashes  - so has the protection.

MNRR issues a detailed explanation of the causes.  It also faults itself for starting a replacement of a power supply during rush hours instead of a weekend.

Interesting   ---  it was a loose wire that caused other power supply to crash.

http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/mnr01_23_2014_shutdown.htm

 

any one think NJ Transit would have been as forth coming  ?

No.  We know NJT is not capable at the moment to do so if only because it appears to be under the direct control of Governor Christie's office since the Sandy debacle.

And from all news reports and MNRR website announcements, yes, it appears the signal system went dark thus trains were instructed to continue at reduced speed to the next station.  While the overhead and third rail were energized and the trains had power so there was heat and lighting aboard.  I am not sure by any of these reports whether or not the switches were operable, though.  

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, January 25, 2014 2:08 AM

BaltACD

When it comes to moving trains -

Protect, then authorize!

When the computer aided signal system crashes  - so has the protection.

MNRR issues a detailed explanation of the causes.  It also faults itself for starting a replacement of a power supply during rush hours instead of a weekend.

Interesting   ---  it was a loose wire that caused other power supply to crash.

http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/mnr01_23_2014_shutdown.htm

 

any one think NJ Transit would have been as forth coming  ?

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, January 24, 2014 11:32 PM

When it comes to moving trains -

Protect, then authorize!

When the computer aided signal system crashes  - so has the protection.

Of course the next refrain is - run it like they did before computers!

There were various 'manual tools' that were in place and used constantly to facilitate the operations prior to computers.  Since computers became the critical element, all those manual tool have been done away with...they cannot be recreated and used 'on the fly'.  Without the computer being involved in the lining of signals, protection of the trains (and their occupants) is seriously comprimised.

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Posted by NorthWest on Friday, January 24, 2014 9:05 PM

Looks like there were quite a few people there! Not good for Metro North.

I think that if the power was cut, those blue screens of death are photoshopped...

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, January 24, 2014 7:57 PM

henry6

Power remained to the trains which were ordered to run at restricted speed to the next station and stop.  It was the power to the dispatchers board(s?) that was disrupted turning the boards off and the signals dark.    I can think of another operation which lost its signal system recently and just left all trains sitting at blank signals wherever they were until the signals came back on. 

Henry:   Did the signals go dark ?  All the signal systems I have heard of still operate with a DD failure. The dispatcher's desk would have to clear signals at CPs.  Are intermediate signals automatic on MNRR or do they have to be cleared by setting up a route. ?  One thread I read is that signal maintainers went to some CPs to clear trains to the next station much like Amtrak has on its portion of the NEC. ?
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Posted by henry6 on Friday, January 24, 2014 6:51 PM

blue streak 1

Computer problems at Grand Central Terminal

If you put all your eggs in one basket and for some reason the basket can not accept any eggs you are in trouble.  If you don't have another basket to put your eggs in then you have to wait.  
 
Now if the power supply did fail to the computer system it is a failure to properly back up the system properly.  
 
One other item.  --  This extended cold spell   seems to be causing many failures not just of the computer.  As our posters in northern climes can testify cold breaks things faster.
 

Last nights incident at MNRR was because a person, a human being, pulled a power supply to change it out, did not look for the back up or was not aware that there was one plus did so at peak transit hours. It was human error, not technical or mechanical.  Power remained to the trains which were ordered to run at restricted speed to the next station and stop.  It was the power to the dispatchers board(s?) that was disrupted turning the boards off and the signals dark.  Evidently MNRR has dispatchers and managers who had the experience and ability to think through the problem to move trains to stations and give commuters the chance to leave the trains for other modes.  I can think of another operation which lost its signal system recently and just left all trains sitting at blank signals wherever they were until the signals came back on. 

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, January 24, 2014 6:17 PM

Firelock76

Mark my words, one day there's going to be a "digital Titanic", and it won't be pretty.

But firelock when it happens you will not be able to gloat to the rest of us ! !
Do you think it will be  a   "CME"  ?
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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, January 24, 2014 5:41 PM

Cold can raise hell with things just as much as heat can.

And Blue Streak's 100% correct about the folly of putting all your eggs in one basket.  There's too much of that going on nowadays, especially  "digital" eggs.

Mark my words, one day there's going to be a "digital Titanic", and it won't be pretty.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, January 24, 2014 9:45 AM

Computer problems at Grand Central Terminal

If you put all your eggs in one basket and for some reason the basket can not accept any eggs you are in trouble.  If you don't have another basket to put your eggs in then you have to wait.  
 
Now if the power supply did fail to the computer system it is a failure to properly back up the system properly.  
 
One other item.  --  This extended cold spell   seems to be causing many failures not just of the computer.  As our posters in northern climes can testify cold breaks things faster.
 
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Posted by BroadwayLion on Friday, January 24, 2014 6:57 AM

Relay Room of London Tubes:

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Friday, January 24, 2014 6:51 AM

Elsewhere in the news:

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Problems on Metro North
Posted by BroadwayLion on Friday, January 24, 2014 6:45 AM

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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