4 dead, 57 injured (and counting). Train was operating south from Pokeepsie to GCT cab forward.
More: http://www.businessinsider.com/metro-north-train-derails-in-the-bronx-2013-12
ROAR
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Was this near the site of the MSW derail and track repair of a few months ago?
It was near the site of a CSX derail in July. Officials say: Not Related.
The engineer reportedly radio'd the derailment saying he applied brakes going into Spuyten Devil interlocking and curve but the brakes failed. 4 dead, 63 injured. All NY TV stations, radio stations,and newspapers have reports, pics, and video on line.
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POTUS and GovNY have already checked in with, "Sympathy," messages.
Is that an active station just ahead of the carnage, or is it just a ghost of commuter service past?
The comments after the ABC.com coverage are full of uninformed sound and fury - none of it worth the wasted bandwith.
As for me, I haven't been in that neighborhood for 57+ years, so I have no dog in this hunt. When the official FRA report comes out, I'll read it. Until then, no further comment.
Chuck (Ex-Noo Yawka 2300 miles removed)
That is the current Spuyten Duyvil Station. The train was not scheduled to stop there. It's last stop before 125th Street and Grand Central was Tarrytown, Ny. This train was an express from Poughkeepsie. Some reporters question the curve. That curve has been there over 100 years. To me, the way the train tipped it looks like excessive speed. I do hope for the engineer's sake that the brakes did fail and that he wasn't texting or BSing on a cellphone.
I've not been able to follow all coverage but I have had comments about the engorged mouths of opportunistic politicians and ignorance of journalists. Seems someone along the day had to explain to both the concept and mechanisms of push-pull technology and the difference between a conductor and an engineer.
The engineer reportedly radio'd in about the derailment and it was quoted that he said he applied the brakes but they didn't apply. The black box from the cab car is reported to have been recovered. It will be interesting to see what it reveals. If the engineer is telling the truth, not lying or hiding anything, I wonder if there was a frost or ice on the rails causing the train to slide or skid rendering the brakes ineffective. That, and all else I or anyone else says is heaped in speculation more than fact.
henry6The engineer reportedly radio'd in about the derailment and it was quoted that he said he applied the brakes but they didn't apply. The black box from the cab car is reported to have been recovered. It will be interesting to see what it reveals. If the engineer is telling the truth, not lying or hiding anything, I wonder if there was a frost or ice on the rails causing the train to slide or skid rendering the brakes ineffective. That, and all else I or anyone else says is heaped in speculation more than fact
If he applied the brakes and the train slid, that is one thing, If he applied the brakes and they did not apply, that is quite another. And the engineer WILL know the difference.
That't the 4 scenarios: he applied and the brakes didn't respond, he applied and the train skidded or slid, or he applied the brakes too late, or he didn't apply the brakes which are the crux of what occurred.
Isn't there an emergency air release valve in the cab? If opened, it should have applied the brakes.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
Report that I read stated that 3 of the 4 dead were ejected from the train. If they were in fact seated on the train I find it difficult to comprehend how they would have been ejected. If they were in a vestibule, I can understand. Questions? Questions? Questions?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SD is not the last before 125, there are also Marble Hill (transfer to 1 Broadway subway on el structure upstairs) University Heights, and Morris Heights. Expresses from Poughkeepsie skip all, and so do some trains from Croton Harmon.
Not having been blessed with a Dutch vocal background or a New Yawk vocal upbringing - just how is 'Spuyten Duyvil' pronounced?
Spy Ten Dye Vel. Spy Ten Devel. I've heard both equally.
I only have a public timetable, not employee, but I see that there were two other south (east) bound trains, the first about two hours earlier was a P'kpskie express, the other an hour earlier was a Croton-Harmon local. If Amtrak had any moves, I don't know and didn't check; they may have been on a different track anwyay. If the express trains operate on a different track than locals, then there was a little over two hours of there being no traffic on the track, ample time for moisture to accumulate and either turn to ice or frost. This would be key if the brakes were applied and the train did not slow down. Ar least in my mind. I don't think there could have been moisture in the brake line which froze on the non stop flight from Croton Harmon, but that is also a possibility; a local would have been stopping and starting keeping the air flowing as applied while an express could conceivably be controlled by throttle control. There are so many things to ponder and have explained....
BaltACDReport that I read stated that 3 of the 4 dead were ejected from the train.
{SALT} (Large Grain of Salt) "Ejected was a word used by reporters. Reporters like to make up words and imagine things as they are not. The bodies were found outside of the car. What else is a reporter going to think.
Fact seems to be that the car was sliding on its side, people may have slipped through the broken glass and window openings only to be squished over by the moving equipment. Had the train been sliding over a smooth surface, they may not have fallen out, but it was passing over very uneven ground, and if leaning on an open window would have fallen out as they passed over a ditch. There are many hills and ditches in that place.
BaltACD Report that I read stated that 3 of the 4 dead were ejected from the train. If they were in fact seated on the train I find it difficult to comprehend how they would have been ejected. If they were in a vestibule, I can understand. Questions? Questions? Questions?
In the pix, there were an awful lot of windows out, including the rubber mounting - the whole front right hand side of the cab car, for example. One of the passengers mentioned that when the car rolled over, ballast started coming in through the windows. Not every window is equipped with handles to pull the key out of the rubber mounting for an emergency exit.
The window glazing has to perform against impacts - a cider block moving at slow speed, but nothing like scraping along the ground.
I wonder if some of those "ejected" went out through the windows?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
If I remember correctly, there are four tracks north of SD, and it is possible the local used a different track than the southbound express, up to the junction itself. Through the curve, after the junction with what was the West Side Freight Line and is now the Amtrak line to Penn Sta., there are only two tracks, continuing through Marbel Hill. As far as I know, the 30mph limit has always been in effect.. and at one time may have been 20 or 25mph before track and switch improvemens were made. This was and is true also for the straight ahead move across the draw bridge that crosses the Harlem River for the Amtrak line.
The old classic era Spuyten Duyvil Station was actually on the curve of the wye, two wood low-level platforms, one on each side. I used the station as a teenager, spending an evening with Herman Rinke in the tower, before he left the Central and became an ICC inspector. The new station is in an entirely different location, since high-level platforms cannot be located on curves, especially with the door locations of the Metro North modern mu cars. For a while, in Penn Cental days, there was no station for the public at SD. I do not remember when MN put a new station into service, but it was part of the general increase in commuter business and better service that MN provided.
Supposedly, the engineer feel asleep. It is also commen for drivers that drive on straight stretches of highway for a while. The person may close their eyes for what they think is a second, and the find they were asleep longer, drivers will get to their destination and not remember parts of their trip. The black box reveled that he had applied the brakes 5 seconds before the train derailed.
I've been aboard a charter bus on an interstate at night and watch the driver nodding off but pulling himself up....but I was ready to jump across the aisle if he didn't snap to...he snapped to and we were ok the rest of the way. Ever hear of Highway Hypnosis? Ever feel that happen to you. To the first question, not until this came up in the Reuters-Chicago Tribune story about the engineer and his union boss's statement. Then I happened to be going through the manual for my 2007 Saturn Aura looking for fuse box diagrams while I traced the circuits because my rear window defroster ain't doin' what it supposed to despite all the lights are on and fuses and relays working...when I dropped the manual and it fell open to a page headed "Highway Hypnosis"! My goodness, professionals have known about it and have been dealing with it for at least 7 years! But I know I've fallen prey to it on 12 hour drives, on drives through falling snow and whipping wipers. So, I can attest to its existence. But how do you deal with it, how do you think about it possibly happening to you and what can you do about it? I often wonder how an engineer with the same train or trains over the same route at the same time every day deals with it. A commuter train engineer doing the same 30 to 90 miles each way a day....an MTA motorman through the same dark tunnels for up to 8 hours...a PATH motorman with what, maybe 2 round trips per hour on a less than 10 mile route for 8 hours everyday. How do they cope, how are they expected to cope? So first you are subject to Highway Hypnosis, then lack of a good sleep over long cycles, then fatigue sets in. We've said, "man up" to it for years. But when it leads to man down, to injuries and deaths, we can no longer just "man up" but have to dig deep to find answers and solutions. PTC? Great idea. But its like taking an aspirin and calling the dispatcher...fixes the moment but doesn't deal with the long range problems.
Highway Hypnosis has been around for a while.
In addition to crash safety, IIRC one of the reasons for moving engineers in early diesels back from the front was that looking down closely on the ties could hypnotize the crew.
Whenever I felt drowsy when driving, I opened the window. A blast of air, preferably cold, would be all that I needed to combat nodding off.
BaltACD {SALT} (Large Grain of Salt) "Ejected was a word used by reporters. Reporters like to make up words and imagine things as they are not. The bodies were found outside of the car. What else is a reporter going to think.
Eject is a proper word. Eject means "push something out." It this case, for those not having a tight grasp of something solid, bodies were flying and being flung about and bouncing off the interior, according to survivor statements. The force here is not only gravity but the motion of the overturned car relative to the airborne bodies inside. The (one?) dead found and crushed under the first car was thrown from the train anyway one looks at it.
rjemery Whenever I felt drowsy when driving, I opened the window. A blast of air, preferably cold, would be all that I needed to combat nodding off.
My experience has been that you won't nod off because you're too occupied with the shivering, it doesn't help you become more alert. Pulling off at a rest area for a short nap will work, though.
Mr. Northwest,
That is a very interesting observation. As a locomotive engineer, I've had occasion to work as a pusher on a coal train for 60+ miles. The track arrangement for the junction to the branchline upon which the power plant was located is a trailing point move. The most expedient move was to call two engineers and swap control of the brakes when ready to make the move down the branch. Riding the rear engine, staring out at the track reeling out from under you at up to 45mph becomes quite hypnotic. When you stop, you could swear that the ties are still moving away from you!
I never thought about what effect that would have on a man operating from the flat end of a cab car.
John
rfpjohn Mr. Northwest, That is a very interesting observation. As a locomotive engineer, I've had occasion to work as a pusher on a coal train for 60+ miles. The track arrangement for the junction to the branchline upon which the power plant was located is a trailing point move. The most expedient move was to call two engineers and swap control of the brakes when ready to make the move down the branch. Riding the rear engine, staring out at the track reeling out from under you at up to 45mph becomes quite hypnotic. When you stop, you could swear that the ties are still moving away from you! I never thought about what effect that would have on a man operating from the flat end of a cab car. John
As information - Sealston Coal trains no longer utilize engineers on locomotives at each end of the loaded train.. The trains, both loaded and empty are taken to Possum Point to be run-around. Possum Point no longer gets coal trains of their own.
Yes, this is true. So now they save calling a second engineer out of AACA (hate that CSX corruption of Acca) and end up calling a second crew to complete the run around and journey down the branch! Gotta love it! So glad my extra board days are long past.
Biggest problem with the Sealston loads is getting the train out of Fulton, through Acca and onto the RF&P. That has always been a problem no matter if the job was called with one or two engineers. The other problem is that the train gets called out of Richmond with no regard for the priority operation of the Sealston Trash Train.
I was once one of the engineers called as the third crew to attempt extracting a Sealston train from Fulton. We were successful. I'm always amazed at the lack of cooperation between divisions. We still have the "just get it out of my yard" school of thought.
Well, whether it was "hypnosis", fatigue, or lack of sleep that caused that Metro-North engineer to do (or not do) what he did I still feel sorry for the guy. He's in deep doo-doo anyway you look at it.
I remember first hearing about "Highway Hypnosis" forty years ago. Drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike were suseptable to it, especially in the lower exit zones of the same. It's a long, boring highway, or it used to be. Now there's so many maniacs on it you're too busy watching out for 'em to fall alseep!
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