The Light Railway Transit Associatoin, wwwl.lrta.org, has an artlicle in its recent issue just received on the St. Louis light ral system, funded by communities in both Illinois and Missouri. It made the point that with its high-floor cars and platforms, and a minimum of street running (bbut there is a bit) and tunnels and underground stations in donwtown (two fully underground and one partially), it is more toward the heavy end of light rail than streetcar. Isn't it an interurban? It still does have some street running, and lots of grade crossings. It has mostly suburb to and from work business, but so did most interurbans. But it is not just a suburban line, like Shaker Heights or Red Arrow, or MInneapolis Light Rail. Bellville, IL, is an important small city, with a Roman Catholic Cahedal, even, and cerainly the line is used for trips to and from work there, and at the Air Force base served, and probably other communities as well. Not just St. Louis. Maybe users so of the line can respond to this question.
A St. Louis-Belleville route would be somewhere in the fuzzy border area between suburban and interurban operation. Belleville and Alton are sizable cities in their own right but both would be considered part of Metro East, which is the part of the St. Louis metropolitan area in Illinois. Because the route doesn't really leave the metro area, I would consider it more of a suburban operation.
Are not there open fields and farmland between Bellville and St. Louis?
daveklepperAre not there open fields and farmland between Bellville and St. Louis?
Looking at satellite photos, in appears that there isn't, only a wooded area dotted with homes. The distinction is rather fuzzy, but I'd say this is more like the MBTA Green Line with high-level platforms, sort of a mixture of light rail and heavy rail.
So, Pacific Elecric, Key System, Interurban Electric, and Oregon Electric (and MSR Rt 40 to San Mateo), would all be suburban electric railways today, on the same basis. But when they were built and operated, there was farmland, and the urban areas were separated. Essentially tjhese systems ARE being rebuilt today, at least partlly, as very different modern light rail or in the case of Key, as heavy rapid transit. Obviously Peoria and Springfield were not by any means suburbs of St. Louis, so IT would still be an interurban today.
Dave, I agree with your post above. Since rail lines all have unique characteristics, arguing over what fits and doesn't fit a definition is very difficult. PATH is a railroad. The South Shore during the classic era was an interurban. They both don't fit neatly into the category in which they were traditionally assigned.
davidklepper (10-24):
About the St. Louis area light rail system, you asked, “Is it an interurban?” I am hardly versed in that lingo, but interurban suggests to me a time over a half century ago.
I assume the light rail you are inquiring about is St Louis’ MetroLink.
In 2010 I was in that area, and got some photos, a sampling of which is below:
The St. Louis area equipment looks like or similar to the San Diego Trolley here in California.
Los Angeles Metro’s Gold Line in Pasadena, the town that hosts the Rose Parade televised nationally usually on New Year’s Day every year:
In modern times “Light Rail” is universal and well known. “Interurban,” on the other hand, strikes me as very archaic and perhaps only known to old timers like me …
Of course, there are commuter trains too …
Those above cars were cracker boxes … and a head-on between Metrolink (Southern California Regional Rail Authority) and a UP freight in 2008 resulted in army tank-like cars.
OK, back to the wizards at the forum.
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Thanks for the pix. Seems like a well-maintained system, cars and RofW-track. Ditto the other two LLRT systems shown, one of which is San Diego (red), for sure, but the other might be Denver?
K.P., thanks for the pictures.
Yes, we are discussing MetroLink.
Dave, the middle is LA.
Which locations in LA?
Well, not technically LA, but Pasadena, a bit Northeast.
LAMATA Gold Line-
Top picture: Memorial Park Station?
Bottom: Median of I-210?
The Gold Line has subway, street running, and grade separated sections. Light Rail is probably the best term for it.
This site's station by station guide is pretty good, although I haven't ridden the system.
Note that the San Diego system is still used for freight. The San Diego and Imperial Valley runs diesel powered freight trains at night between their yard adjacent to the BNSF yard near downtown to the border at San Ysidro. Their is also some freight operation on the line out to El Cajon.
So, do any of the other light rail lines being considered as interurbans also run freight trains?
BART, PATCO, and PATH just might be caaled modern-day interurbans. The three remaining Red Aroow lines in Philadelphia, along with the abandoned roures, were once considered interurbans but now the only line that gets called that is the South Shore Line. One other rapid transit that might be called one is MARTA.
BART, MARTA, PATCO and PATH all are operated with heavy rail equipment, and operate with subway equipment. The South Shore is now pretty much a commuter railroad. The Norristown Speedline is closest to an interurban, but operates entirely in greater Philadelphia. For the most part, the classic interurban is gone.
I would still maintain the CSS&SB is an interurban, as long as the Michigan City streetrunning, with its store-front station and loading passengers from the street pavement, continiues to exist. Having ridden the CNS&M, CA&E, L&WV, LVT-Liberty Bell, WCF&N, West Penn, Ptts. Ry Charlerio and Washington, Quebec-St. Joachim, B&A -exWB&A, I feel I have the right to make that statement. And PE had cars just as heavy, had freight, etc. Lots of interurbans hauled freight, about half having some kind of interchange with Class-I's.
Switzerland has a number of interubans, Austria the Weiner Lokalbahn to Baden, Germany the Rhinebahn, Heidelberg to Mannheim, and the Isle of Man the Manx Electric.
St. Louis Light Rail is an understated blessing in our community. It serves dozens of communities as far East as Scott Air Force Base, and West to Lambert International Airport. It has a Southwestern branch to Shrewsbury and hopefully one day Northeastward to the communities of Granite City, Pontoon Beach, Glen Carbon, Edwardsville and Hamel. It is not an intercity, but a intracity - "Interurban" rail line. I also hope heavy rail would find a place in the mix, running from Wentzville to Downtown St. Louis, and Eureka to St. Louis; all the track is in place. Going to a Cardinals baseball game on light rail? A 100 foot walk to the stadium wall. Going to school? Southwestern Illinois College, Washington University, University of Missouri-St. Louis, Saint Louis University, and others are right along the tracks with convenient stations. The jewel of St. Louis entertainment, Union Station, has its own stop, as does the Rams and Blues stadiums, and the convention center utilizing 1870's era tunnels to approach the Eads Bridge across the Mighty Mississippi River and the LaClede Landing entertainment district and St. Louis Gateway Arch. Light Rail? Interurban? Heavy Rail? Does it matter? It is part of a magnificient transportation system that is is run and coordinated by several local transit agencies - and they do a great job! Whenever I can park for free, pay $4.00 round trip to travel 20 miles, and spend a day enjoying several locations and history, I say Thank You!
HIghSpeedRepublicanLight Rail? Interurban? Heavy Rail? Does it matter?
No, it doesn't. If it works effectively as a transportation system, that is all that matters.
Dave, you certainly have the right to regard the South Shore as an interurban. I only wish I could have had the experiences you did.
I ride Metrolink often and it's called a light rail system. It uses the old Terminal RR tunnel under downtown and also the Eads Bridge that belonged to them. It's not a commuter line like Chicago or NYC because it does not go that far. I've ridden on Metra in Chicago and it goes quite a ways from city center.
Our airport is within the St. Louis County limits and so is Shrewbury station, where I board. It takes about 45 mins to get to Belleville/Scott, but have no idea how many miles. It is not like a streetcar, there is no street running anywhere, it uses a ROW that is just for them, not even shared with any other RR's. Through Forest Park, it used old Wabash line and the Delmar stop is located right below their old station, which is no longer used, but is still standing. New lines had to be built for the extensions to Airport, IL and Shrewsbury. Part of the Shrewsbury line runs in a tunnel but that was because Clayton did not want a train running above ground in their snooty locations. So it took longer to build and cost much more than planned. The parking is horrible in Clayton but they didn't want to look at the train, so there it is.
Hope this info helps. When I ride over to Belleville, part of the route is very rural and I do think I am riding on a train.
You summed it up very well, HIgh Speed, and it's a great addition to our City.
If part of the route to Bellville is still very rural, since Bellville is definitely more than a suburb of St. Louis and is an employment center in its own right, then it is both Light Rail and a modern interurban. In my view if not necesarily in yours.
If an electric rail line using less-then-full-size railcars connects a series of towns, suburban or not, on its own RoW (could include some street-running) then it sounds like the modern equivalent of an interurban. I did not get to ride any thing beyond the CA&E, but it was considered an interurban and matches those criteria. Lucky Dave!!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
But if you want, you can still ride the CSS&SB, perhaps writing for permission to ride the front platfrom sradning across from the engineer, after finding some legitimate excuse for them to give you permission. And you can ride St. Louis light rail and relive the Ilinoise Terminal subway and bridge exit from St. Louis and realize on the trip though and past Bellville what a classic interurban was like.
I think I am lucky to Hsve Jerualem Light Rail to ride, and there is one area, on the northern section of the line, between Sufat and Pizgat Zeve, where the side-of-road operation resembles an interurban line, the most scenic portion.
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