The decision to go with streetcars over a bus system most likely had nothing to do with carbon emission issues or how "fun" trains are. The problem with bus systems is that they tend to distribute populations instead of concentrating them. Bus stops are more flexible then fixed rail stops so they don't tend to produce the same kind of increase in land value. Its all about development- that's why these things are so expensive and that's also why they're so good for the communities that invest in them.
There are two streetcar projects underway in Dallas.
The McKinney Avenue trolley system is being extended down St. Paul Street to Federal Street, along Federal Street to Olive Street, and back out on Olive Street to McKinney Avenue. The total distance is slightly more than a mile. The estimated cost as of April 2012 was $6.8 million. Approximately half of the funds are being provided by the federal government.
The other streetcar line is being built in two phases. The first phase will run from the Dallas Convention Center, which is located downtown, to the Methodist Hospital District in Oak Cliff, which is just across the Trinity River, for folks brave enough to call it a river. It will run across the Houston Street viaduct, which has been closed for construction of the streetcar line. The estimated cost of the first phase as of April 2013 is $48.6 million. The line is approximately 1.5 miles. The second phase, which is .7 miles, would extend the line to the Bishop Arts area. It would add another $30.87 million to the construction cost. The estimated total cost of the project is $79.5 million.
I did not figure the debt service cost for the projects. As is the case for all capital projects of this nature, debt service can add significantly to the project cost. The cost of the McKinney Avenue trolley extension does not include any additional operating equipment. The cost of the Oak Cliff line includes two sets of equipment. They appear to be similar to the modern streetcars that I saw in Melbourne, Australia. In addition, DART estimates that the operating cost of the Oak Cliff line will range from $250,000 to $2 million, which is a pretty broad estimate.
- I support light rail but tis is a rediculous price. Atlanta is building a 2.7 mile streetcar line ( amazing same length as FLL ) Atlanta's cost is just $69.2M vs FLL$142.6M So what kind of gold plating could prossibly cost this much ? Same need for car barn, same cost for light rail / street cars. . The only extra FLL cost would be track over the draw bridge.
The utilitty relocation costs should be less as FLL is a much younger city and utiilities should be easier located. Also much less hills in FLL. All in all an interesting boondoggle.
It is time to be good stewarts of everyon's money.
SAM what is the present cost per mile of the Dallas extensions ? I realize that is not a completely valid comparsion but maybe taking the second section of the FLL??l
John WR Sam, I don't suggest generating electricity with wind turbines is simple. I do suggest it is possible and it is done today in a number of places. In the northeast many of our current electricity transmission lines are obsolete and need to be replaced. They were built in the 1930's and are inadequate to today's air conditioning loads. Wind turbine technology is not new but it is evolving. This could be the time for the northeast to turn to wind turbines to generate part of our electricity.
Sam,
I don't suggest generating electricity with wind turbines is simple. I do suggest it is possible and it is done today in a number of places. In the northeast many of our current electricity transmission lines are obsolete and need to be replaced. They were built in the 1930's and are inadequate to today's air conditioning loads. Wind turbine technology is not new but it is evolving. This could be the time for the northeast to turn to wind turbines to generate part of our electricity.
Generation with wind turbines is relatively simple. The key issue is back-up. In the case of wind, as well as other forms of renewable power, including hydro, the power supplier needs a megawatt of back-up power for every megawatt of renewable power, or it needs to get its customers to agree to take interruptable power contracts.
Back-up does not just mean mothballing an old fossil fueled power plant. It means maintaining it, turning the turbine to prevent warp, etc.
Presumably the proponents of the Fort Lauderdale streetcar would not be keen to have to shut it down periodically because the wind stops blowing or the sun stops shinning.
Hydro could shut down? Yep! If water levels and/or flow get too low, the generators have to be shut down. It happens.
The issue is not rebuilding existing transmission lines. It is building new lines from the wind farms to the areas where the power is needed.
Fort Lauderdale probably would buy power for its streetcar from Florida Power and Light Company or one of the other wholesale power suppliers in the area. A significant percentage of power in south Florida comes from coal.
Green energy is not new.
New York Power Authority Hydro facilities:
St. Lawrence-Franklin D. Roosevelt Power Project
Location: Massena, on the St. Lawrence River,
St. Lawrence County
Net Dependable Capability: 800,000 kilowatts
First Commercial Power: July 1958
Niagara Power Project
Location: Lewiston, on the Niagara River,
Niagara County
Net Dependable Capability: 2,441,000 kilowatts
First Commercial Power: January 1961
Blenheim-Gilboa Pumped Storage Power Project
Location: Blenheim and Gilboa, southwest of Albany,
Schoharie County
Net Dependable Capability: 1,100,000 kilowatts
First Commercial Power: July 1973
Small Hydro Projects: Ashokan Project, Ulster County Crescent Plant, Albany and Saratoga Counties Gregory B. Jarvis Plant, Oneida County Vischer Ferry Plant, Saratoga and Schenectady Counties
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration Monthly Energy Review, in 2012 approximately 3.6 per cent of the electricity generated in the U.S. came from wind. Some states, however, realized a higher output from wind. In 2011 South Dakota generated 22.3 per cent of its power from wind, followed by 18.8 per cent for Iowa, 14.7 per cent for North Dakota, etc. Texas came in at 6.9 per cent. None of the coastal states ranked in the top 15.
According to Table 945, Electricity Generation by Sector and Fuel Type, in 2010 wind accounted for 3.3 per cent of net generation. Wind, however, is not the only renewable source. The total amount of electricity generated in 2010 from renewables (solar, biomass, hydro, etc.) was 8.9 per cent.
Until a way can be found to store electric energy economically, renewables are likely to play a relatively minor role in power generation. This is especially true in developed countries, where people will not tolerate having their electricity shutdown because the wind stops blowing, the sun stops shinning, etc.
Transmission lines may appear to be available to carry the electricity generated by wind power. In many instances this is not true. The transmission system was set up to wheel power from installed power plants. In many instances they don't run from the wind farms to the areas needing the power. Moreover, it is not just the lines. They require switch yards, step-up transformers, modulation transformers, step-down transformers, control mechanisms, etc. What looks simple to the lay person is not so simple for the power generators and transmission operators.
Anything that moves can be used to generate electricity. Wind, waves, river currents, etc.
The fact that electricity is manufactured is it's strength. As technology advances, the generation facilities can be upgraded or replaced and the consumer does not need to change anything.
While coal is a pollution source, technology has found ways to scrub and sequester the pollutants that could not be done at a consumer level. While it is only an interim step, it is a small step in the right direction. Similar advances are being made with other carbon products. But we still MUST find ways to generate electricity that are even cleaner.
daveklepperElectrical engineers know that providing a substantial portion of the power to a given area by wind turbines is not an easy matter
I'm not an engineer, Dave. But I sure have read a lot of articles that say in the northeast (or even all of the east) off shore wind turbines could provide a lot of power. Much of our population is already concentrated along the coast and we have transmission lines to serve those people. And since the coast line is relatively long the wind is not constant over the whole length.
There is a concern that the demand for power is greatest in summer due to air conditioning but the winds blow better in winter. And we can't generate all of the power we need by wind so we must have other sources of generation. However, there are areas where wind generation of power is used.
We are blessed with an abundance of fossil fuels and right now with fracking the cost of natural gas is quite low. So right now natural gas is being used to generate a lot of power. It doesn't produce carbon but it does produce carbon dioxide.
John
Electrical engineers know that providing a substantial portion of the power to a given area by wind turbines is not an easy matter, because of the VARIABILITY of the amount of power available. And there is no easy (economical) solution, given the costs of transmission lines and back-up power sources.
Sam1: Glad you stopped by Little Rock to ride the tram. It was put in for the benefit of helping revitalize the River Market area and the downtowns of Little Rock and North Little Rock. It is doing exactly that, helping bring it all together. Always see at least a decent number of riders on it when I am in that part of town.
Personally, I would have preferred modern trams that can move with some modicum of speed, rather than something built to look nostalgic. But this was done for the downtown area. For the LRV lines in planning for Little Rock, they are looking at modern equipment that can accomplish speed and will be mostly on its own ROW.
So the nostalgic tram has been a good thing for Little Rock/North Little Rock, well worth the investment.
tomikawaTTMaybe the able-bodied don't think these things are important.
I do think environmental pollution is important, Chuck But with electric streetcars we don't eliminate pollution; if we use fossil fuels to generate electricity we simply move the pollution to another place. In the northeast where I live we could generate about 25 per cent of our electricity by wind turbines. However, environmentalists oppose them. And we generate a fair amount of electricity with fossil fuel. Although these days we are using more natural gas and less coal. Even using coal in a generating plant enables us to recover more carbon than using a diesel engine does. However, we have to generate more electricity because some gets lost in the transmission wire.
Of course it is possible to run buses on compressed natural gas and it is even possible to run them on electricity as was common in the northeast in the 1940's. And it is also quite possible to run street cars with diesel engines. New Jersey Transit does just that on the RiverLine, a light rail line between Trenton and Camden.
daveklepper Sam, from an economic and transportation position, having been in Fort Lauderdale and doubt that a whale of a lot has changed in the past 19 years, I agree with you. But streecars are FUN. People ENJOY RIDING THEM! People will ride a streetcar a few blocks instead of walking. That is why the residents want them and why the busisnesses along the line, some of them anyway, are willing to be taxed to support them.
Sam, from an economic and transportation position, having been in Fort Lauderdale and doubt that a whale of a lot has changed in the past 19 years, I agree with you.
But streecars are FUN. People ENJOY RIDING THEM! People will ride a streetcar a few blocks instead of walking. That is why the residents want them and why the busisnesses along the line, some of them anyway, are willing to be taxed to support them.
Your are correct. They are fun. Practically every time I go to Dallas (two or three times a month), I organize my trip to take a ride or two on the McKinney Avenue trolley. Also, I have traveled to Little Rock to ride the trolley that runs to North Little Rock and to President Clinton's Library.
tomikawaTT Yes, a bunch of diesel-stinking, carbon-belching buses would be cheaper - until you factor in the expense of treating the population for the resperatory problems they will cause. I'm now paying the price for growing up in a place where people burned coal for heat, routinely torched piles of autumn leaves and didn't worry about automotive pollution. And I don't smoke, and have never smoked, cigarettes. Note, too, the raised platforms in the artist's rendition. The streetcar will obviously be more disability-friendly than any bus currently in service. Maybe the able-bodied don't think these things are important. Wait until age, arthritis, diabetes and cumulative environmental problems kick in. As for Paul Finizio - he is, after all, a lawyer... Chuck
Yes, a bunch of diesel-stinking, carbon-belching buses would be cheaper - until you factor in the expense of treating the population for the resperatory problems they will cause.
I'm now paying the price for growing up in a place where people burned coal for heat, routinely torched piles of autumn leaves and didn't worry about automotive pollution. And I don't smoke, and have never smoked, cigarettes.
Note, too, the raised platforms in the artist's rendition. The streetcar will obviously be more disability-friendly than any bus currently in service.
Maybe the able-bodied don't think these things are important. Wait until age, arthritis, diabetes and cumulative environmental problems kick in.
As for Paul Finizio - he is, after all, a lawyer...
Chuck
The LA Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced recently that 100 per cent of its buses are powered by natural gas. Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) is replacing all of its diesel powered buses with natural gas powered buses. The "T" in Fort Worth has replaced many of its diesel powered buses with natural gas powered vehicles. It will be 100 per cent natural gas in several years. The new buses being bought by Capital Metro (Austin) will be powered by natural gas. Diesel buses are being replaced by natural gas buses as rapidly as feasible. It would be improbable that Fort Lauderdale would buy diesel buses if it decided to go that way as opposed to a showcase light rail.
A 1.4 mile light rail system is unlikely to serve many disabled riders, especially considering that much of the area that it will serve is commercial. Moreover, today's buses have low floor, can kneel at curbside, and have lifts for mobility impaired passengers.
Sam1And how much I would save with a bus system vs. a trolley system,
Fort Lauderdale already has a bus system, Sam. But you are right; no doubt buying some buses for the new route would be less expensive than building a street car line. I don't know why a decision to build a street car line was made here; however the new street car has been planned since 2004 and there seems to be a consensus there that they want a street car rather than a bus. I don't intend this as an argument against your position because I agree buses would be cheaper.
Who is Attorney Paul Finizio? Was he serious? Or was he just posturing for the press? Did the reporter capture his comments, tone, intent, accurately? It is impossible to say from the report.
The trolley system will cost $142.6 million. The city's taxpayers will be on the hook for $41.1 million after factoring debt service into the cost. The federal, state, and county taxpayers will have to pony up $122 million, plus debt service, assuming the project comes in on time.
Based on the U.S. Treasury long bond rate, which is a good public borrowing benchmark, total cost for the taxpayers outside of Fort Lauderdale could be $189.4 million, thereby bringing the cost of the project over 30 years to $230.5 million.
If I lived in Fort Lauderdale, I would want to know what a trolley could do for me that buses running the same route could not do. And how much I would save with a bus system vs. a trolley system,
I wonder about the suggestion that free chauffeured limousines would be cheaper. How big a fleet would be required to carry everyone who will ride the street car? How many would you need at each street car stop? I assume that would be cheaper than taking attorney Finzio at his word and actually giving a free chauffeured limousine to each resident who otherwise would ride the street car. And do you also give one to visitors and other tourists?
Surfing the web a new limousine costs about $60,000.
A chauffeur earns about $25,000 a year. To provide service 16 hours a day you would need 2 per limousine and you need to pay fringe benefits which typically are 25 per cent of salary. That is $62,500 per year.
Metropolitan Fort Lauderdale has 5.5 million people but the city has only 165,000. If we assume that only city dwellers use public transit and that a limousine will last 10 years the cost per year is:
$62,500 (salary plus finges) + $6,000 (cost of vehicle per year) x 165,000.
Total annual cost is $113,025, 000,000 or over $113 billion per year. And that does not consider gas, insurance or repairs which would add thousands a year per car. So it seems to be that the street cars will be a real bargain for Fort Lauderdale.
Street cars will cost $142 million to install. If they last 20 years that is $7 million per year.
I would recommend against chauffeured limousines. And I would send attorney Finzio back to grammar school to learn multiplication.
The Fort Lauderdale city commission has approved a property tax levy to support construction and operation of a planned 2.7-mile, $142.6 million downtown modern streetcar line, the Sun Sentinel reported Wednesday. The tax will be assessed within a special district flanking the streetcar tracks. Here's a map of the proposed route (click on map to enlarge):http://tinyurl.com/o6vbonpHere's an artist's rendering of the streetcar:http://wavestreetcar.com/yahoo_site_admin/\assets/images/6th_st.204120054.jpgAnd the news story: http://tinyurl.com/nzsypa7"Fort Lauderdale approves downtown streetcar taxJuly 10, 2013By Larry BarszewskiSun SentinelFORT LAUDERDALE — Commissioners have unanimously approved a plan to tax downtown property owners for the next 25 years to help pay for the Wave electric streetcar system, despite pleas from critics who called the project a boondoggle."We could give everybody limos and drive them around downtown for less than this," downtown attorney Paul Finizio said.The $142.6 million, 2.7-mile long system is being paid for mostly with federal and local government dollars, but it also requires $20.6 million from area property owners.Although the proposed assessments were made public in April and have been discussed in general terms for several years, the first official notice to property owners came in proposed assessments mailed to them in June.The commission set the annual assessment at $99 for residential units, 9 cents per square foot for non-residential property and 3 cents per square foot for vacant land.
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