Don Engle was President of the Branford Electric Railway Association for many years and spark-plugged the conversion from diesel generation of trolley-wire power to first a substation using the rotary converter that formerly provided DC power for the Forbes Avenue drawbridge, and then to rectifier power with material donated by EMD through the efforts of Don Konsbrook and other railfan EMD employees.
His father was a NYW&B conductor, and so Don became a railfan as a youngster.
He and I used to have arguments, continually. He always said the NYW&B was terminated by NYNH&H chicanary. I claimed it was poorly plalnned from the beginning. The 4-track RofW was not necessary, standards of construction were too high, and the line would have been more of a success if it had been designed for equipment compatible with IRT subway and elevated equipment and negotiated rights to operate through to downtown Manhattan like the North Shore did with Chicago Rapid Transit and then the CTA. There was track-time-space available on the Second Avenue Elevated, and the track connection existed at Willis Avenue Station, the NYW&B's southern terminal. Before about 1934 or 1935, there was a regular shuttle from 129th and 3rd (used as the northern terminal for 2nd and 3rd Avenue locals) and an across the platform transfer to NYW&B trains and New Haven Harlem River shuttles to New Rochelle, which shared the same terminal track. The last two or three years of NYW&B service the shuttle was replaced by a covered walkway to the E-133rd Street 2nd and 3rd Avenue elevated station. I rode the shuttle's tracks in comosite cars on a fan trip around 1953. The track was still used occasionally to deliver new A-Division (IRT) cars.
Of course, even then, the post-WWII aut o boom would have doomed the line, and the scrapping of the 3rd Avenue elevated, with the Lexington Avenue subway at capacity, would have made a new connection, such as now used by the 5 trains, impractical.
John WR OvermodPiermont was intentionally chosen at a point where the river would be so wide that currents wouldn't disturb boats pulled up to the pier I have heard another story, Don, which does not contradict you but does add some context. When the Erie Canal was built all of New York's people had to pay for it. The Canal was extremely successful and increased the economy of both the northern tier of counties and New York City. However, the southern tier, which had shared in the cost, did not share in the benefits. As a consolation prize the New York Legislature funded the New York and Erie Railroad for the southern tier. However, the Legislature did not want the railroad to compete with the canal so it provided for a broad gauge that would not connect to other railroads, for an ending at Dunkirk which was on lake Erie but in an out of the way place and a beginning at Piermont to require changing to a boat to get to New York City. That is the reason why the railroad was originally built as it was. John
OvermodPiermont was intentionally chosen at a point where the river would be so wide that currents wouldn't disturb boats pulled up to the pier
I have heard another story, Don, which does not contradict you but does add some context.
When the Erie Canal was built all of New York's people had to pay for it. The Canal was extremely successful and increased the economy of both the northern tier of counties and New York City. However, the southern tier, which had shared in the cost, did not share in the benefits. As a consolation prize the New York Legislature funded the New York and Erie Railroad for the southern tier. However, the Legislature did not want the railroad to compete with the canal so it provided for a broad gauge that would not connect to other railroads, for an ending at Dunkirk which was on lake Erie but in an out of the way place and a beginning at Piermont to require changing to a boat to get to New York City. That is the reason why the railroad was originally built as it was.
John
The way I originally heard the story, the steamboat was a relative attraction, not a stopgap, when the service was introduced. The run down from Piermont was relatively short (and of course scenic; anyone remember 'the towers of Manhattan fade in the morning mist'?) and more importantly, passengers could have something to eat while in transit and get freshened up before arrival in Gotham. Remember what normal rail travel consisted of in those pre-Pullman times!
It also saved a GREAT deal of expense and trouble at the New York end...
When service speeded up, and railborne amenities improved, the Erie seems to have had little trouble either making its own connections to the part of New Jersey adjacent to NYC, or in acquiring railroads that went there (the Pascack Valley line and the old Northern)...
This Piermont thing may parallel, I think, the NYW&B thinking -- that turned out to be an awful mistake -- that no downtown-New York terminal locations were actually going to be needed because the fast, convenient electric subway, and the Els, would go the last mile, and since most of the commuters were going to be transferring to the subway anyway, why not save some time and congestion by coming in from further out (where seats would be more readily available, for one thing).
If the track were centered, would not there be room for a walkway on each side?
NS could use it as a gateway into New England. Problem is that the woolen and gun mills closed years ago and there is little industry left in New England
MidlandMikeIs this a bridge across the Hudson at Piermont, the terminal of the Erie?
No (the title of the posted photo itself gives the ID away). All railroads with Erie in their name are not Erie, as it were. But there is a bit more to this Piermont story than might appear.
Piermont was intentionally chosen at a point where the river would be so wide that currents wouldn't disturb boats pulled up to the pier (which is still largely there, and still impressive) -- or deflect river current strongly to wash away at Washington Irving's property on the other side. That is about the last place in the world you'd want to put a bridge, especially with War Department regs mandating such a high clearance... even if there were a place for the Erie to go down to NYC on the other side... and so things sat, while the Poughkeepsie bridge route was proposed, and failed, and later built and connived over, all the way through to the Fifties.
... until the time came for the Thruway to go across. And it became cheaper to build 'most' of the crossing down low, out of the channel... and so the bridge across that wide place in the River, the Tappan Zee, was put up.
And now there are discussions about incorporating a rail link into the Tappan Zee Bridge replacement... which would access ex-Erie trackage... not just at Sparkill or Nyack, either.
It is not that nobody wants or wanted it it was that those who had it didn't want it and didn't want others to have it: PC vis the rest of the railroads in the East.
It was double track then gauntlet track then single track. But if track were to be put back it would have to be centered and thus negate the walkway. There are old ROW's leading to the bridge on both sides...walkways now...so there is no track and thus no real hope of retracking the bridge or the route...
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Problem is, nobody wants it. If it were important, it would have been fixed 40 years ago.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
At one time it was a dobuble-track bridge, then reduced to single for improved clearances and support of heavier trains. I wonder if it could ever be restored to have both one railroad track and a pedestrian walkway?
No sir. It is the New York, New Haven & Hartford's (NYNH&H) former bridge between Highland New York on the West bank of the Hudson River and Poughkeepsie NY on the East side. A few years ago it was rebuilt into the Walk across the Hudson, a New York Sate Park offering a terrific view, and open to the public.
RIGHT
I just assumed Exchange Pl. because that was the PRR NYC terminal at the time. Greenville, Jersey City, Could be, too because of the float docks not at EP.
y understanding is that the NYNH&H "Federal Express ferryboat" went from Greenville, NJ to Oak Point yard in the Bronx. But it may have been the Exchange Place Jersey City terminal. Or it may have been both, at one time one and then changed to the other.
PC was forced to take the NH quite a while after PC was formed, so it was not part of the deal to form PC. PC was looking for a way to choke off the EL, LV, CNJ-RDG (thus B&O and a few others) New England interchange traffic at Maybrook and force shippers to use PC through Selkirk and the B&A to New England knowing the B&M could not handle any more traffic via the Hoosic Tunnel route. Although burning the bridge on purpose is not out of the question, most likely it wasn't arson. But PC did their damndest to not do anything about repair or replacement. The others went to the ICC to force a settlement for interchange. The EL's settlement was that PC had to continue to operate as if the interchange was at Maybrook by running thier own train from Selkirk to Binghamton via the EL Utica branch.
As for the Federal Express...Washington DC to Boston via PRR-BelDel-LHR-CNE-NH picking up a Hoboken Sleeper off the DL&W at Andover Jct.. But as soon as the tunnels under the North RIver, Penn Station and Hell Gate Bridge were opened it was stopped. Before the inland route, cars were floated from Exchange Pl , Jersey City to I think Port Norris or Portchester for NH to carry.
As a matter of fact, I just thought, Tomorrow Ridewithmehenry is riding another forunner route: the LIRR to Greenport where waiting steamers waved it to Boston for those passengers!
Well, Lion, you gave me what I asked for or at least gave me something as close to what I asked for as possible. But I don't think the Boston, Hartford and Erie really went kaput. I think it became the New York and New England and was ultimately absorbed by the New York, New Haven and Hartford. I also think the Federal Express (Trains 71 and 72) between Boston and Washington ran over it before the Hell Gate Bridge was built.
Hello Henry! Yes, it's true PC owned the New Haven at the time of the bridge fire but the fact remains they didn't want it in the first place. As I understand it taking the New Haven was a condition for Federal permission for the PRR-NYC merger.
No. They owned the NH by then...They didn't want to maintain the interchange for the EL, LV, CNJ, RDG, and others, insteead forceing all to PC at Selkirk Yard near Albany in order to get to New England....giving PC the long haul and all the money. ICC forced the issue making PC interchange with EL at Binghamton with run through train from Selkirk but rated at Maybroook.
That's the Poughkeepsie Bridge all right. Rumor has it it was sabotaged by the Penn Central because they wanted nothing to do with the New Haven, but of course that's just speculation, we'll never know for certain.
The Erie never crossed the Hudson. The pic is the Poughkeepsie Bridge.
John WR Is this a bridge across the Hudson at Piermont, the terminal of the Erie?
Is this a bridge across the Hudson at Piermont, the terminal of the Erie?
The picture appears to be the Hudson River bridge at Poughkeepsie, NY. The Boston Hartford and Erie was a predecessor RR there.
John WR Do you have a picture of the Boston Hartford and Erie where the famous railroader Jay Gould began is career with the Erie?
Do you have a picture of the Boston Hartford and Erie where the famous railroader Jay Gould began is career with the Erie?
Pretty thin pickings on a railroad that went kaput before the advent of film.
Try This:
A great call, Lion!
The New York Westchester and Boston Railroad (1912 - 1937)
A Family Resemblance:
Any Family Resemblance is purely intentional.
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