I thought this post was about the financially overblown, mindless streecar projects sprouting up all across America. You know, the ones costing tens of millions of dollars that merely involve having a streetcar line circle the block in some urban renewel real estate development that everyone has to drive to get to so as to ride around the block between their shopping or fast food activities.
Streecars are supposed to be line-haul transportation, not a quasi-amusement park ride.
You mean The Modern Great American Streetcar Scandal.
`1. If a bus line handles more than about 60,000 people a day, it usually will make economic sense to convert it to a streetcar line even if the lanes must be shared with general traffic. The investment in physical plant and vehicles will be paid off by far more economical handling of the passengers and by some added travelers switching from auto to public transportation, since on the average, it costs half as much on a passenger-mile basis to carry a person on a streetcar than on a bux. (Larger capacity vehicles for more efficient manpower usage, and terrifically lower vehicle maintenance costs, like about 10%!)
2. Most new streetcar lines do not meet this criterion. Most are justified on the basis of economic boom along their routes, that land values will increase, more people will shop or work or live or whatever. In many cases this case has been proved . But when I read about a streetcar "success" that handles less that 2000 people a day, I have to question the wisdom of building the line in the first place.
60,000 people a day sounds like a real challenge for even light rail. If a line operates 24 hours a day that is an average of 2500 people an hour or 41 people a minute. However, no doubt most people would ride during the rush hours.
New Jersey Transit multi level rail cars carry 140 people each. That is 1120 people in an 8 car train, a few less allowing for one handicapped accessible rest room and the engineer's cab. During the rush hours I would think you would need at least 5 trains (carrying a total of 5600 people) each hour but fewer trains outside the rush hour. Or, during rush hours, you might have a constant stream of large articulated buses but I wonder if they could keep up with the crowds.
daveklepper `1. If a bus line handles more than about 60,000 people a day, it usually will make economic sense to convert it to a streetcar line
`1. If a bus line handles more than about 60,000 people a day, it usually will make economic sense to convert it to a streetcar line
What is the source of that astronomical number?
The maximum capacity of a bus is 50 passengers. By my calculations that means that if more than 1,200 bus trips per day are required on a given route it makes economic sense to run a street car.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Perhaps he meant 6,000? 120 buses running a route each day sounds like a fairly busy route.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
That is still a FULL bus every 5 minutes 18 hours a day.
True. I was being generous. That 60K looks like a completely arbitrary number that should be about 3,000-4,000.
I agree, That said, I strongly support rail in high density corridors but I do not support putting rail in the street mixed with rubber tire traffic.
Oil is good, water is good, but oil and water do not mix. Steel wheels and rubber tires do not play well together.
John WR New Jersey Transit multi level rail cars carry 140 people each. That is 1120 people in an 8 car train, a few less allowing for one handicapped accessible rest room and the engineer's cab.
New Jersey Transit multi level rail cars carry 140 people each. That is 1120 people in an 8 car train, a few less allowing for one handicapped accessible rest room and the engineer's cab.
I agree with your argument, but, unlike NJT, intra urban rail, like light rail, subways, and street cars do not worry about each passenger having a seat. The Siemens S70s used here in Charlotte claim a capacity of 236 each but have only 68 seats. FYI: The single 10 mile long Lynx Blue Line in Charlotte carries an average of 15,000 people per day. A 10 mile extension of the line is currently under construction.
Don't get commuter rail confused with rapid transit rail Rapid transit passengers usually don't ride to an end terminal but many are getting on and off at stations between end points. One seat can be occupied several times in a single trip plus many will stand. Commuter rail riders usually get on at a station and ride to an end terminal (GCT, NYP, Hoboken) or junction (Newark Broad, Newark Penn, Secaucus Jct, Jamaica for example) and usually occupies a seat on whatever part of the trip they are on.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
My figure seems astromonical but is accurate if you want the overall expense of the streetcar or light rial line running in a street with other traffic to be less than running buses on the same street. And it is not really astronomical. Our Jerusalem Light Rail handles 110,000 separate journies each weekday, on one line, one route. I also pointed out that there may be economical development reasons to run streetcars, in the street, for far fewer passengers per day . But a success that has only say 1500 journeys each day seems problamatical to me. That would be 30 bus trips (with standees making up for the lack of a full load on other trips) or with 7AM - 10pm, ever thirty minutes.
I am counting the cost of interest on the capital expense of installing the track and power, the streetcars themselves, and the yard and shops. And conditions may vary. I am assuming all street track, in pavement, with no rail right-of-way ready to use and no economical regular tie ballast construction. I am assuming simple overhad wire with modern constant tensioning instead of complex railroad-like heavy-duty catenary. I am assuming regular pole construction without ties span wire to existing building or lamposts. Etc.
Articulated buses and trolleybuses can handle about 140 people with a full standing load. If we assume an average load all day of 60, which is reasonable, then we have 1000 trips a day for my figure as the upper limit for a bus lines. Now we divide by two, because we are talking about the entire route and not just one direction. So we have 30,000 people each way over a 15 hour, 750 minute, period, 500 trips each way each day. The normal traffic light cycle in New York City is 1-1/2 minutes, so we are talking about one bus each cycle, perfectly realistic.
On St. Catherins Street in Montreal in the streetcar era, seven or eight streetcars would cross on one green, as coupled in a train, but actually operated seperately!
Your attempt to justify the huge number that you apparently pulled out of thin air does not hold water.
How many buses and how many drivers does it take to run a bus every minute and a half, which you stated is perfectly realistic. You claim to count the interest on the rail infrastructure but I don't see any interest on the cost of purchasing all those buses and THEIR maint facilities.
You claimed that your number is the threshold of when rail becomes reasonable. The number is ridiculous and I believe you just made it up.
Phoebe Vet Your attempt to justify the huge number that you apparently pulled out of thin air does not hold water. How many buses and how many drivers does it take to run a bus every minute and a half, which you stated is perfectly realistic. You claim to count the interest on the rail infrastructure but I don't see any interest on the cost of purchasing all those buses and THEIR maint facilities. You claimed that your number is the threshold of when rail becomes reasonable. The number is ridiculous and I believe you just made it up.
If Dave didn't make it up, he has only to provide the citation to the study that established that number as the threshold where rail in the street becomes better than buses.
To keep my argument in perspective please remember that I don't think rail belongs in the street, but should have it's own ROW.
Do not overlook the fact that a streetcar/light rail vehicle, while having a capacity of say, 50 people sitting and standing for argument sake, can file and empty the car several times in a given trip accounting for maybe 200 even 300 passengers. So if there is an average of 20 streetcars an hour on any given line (both directions with rush hours and regular hours added in a 18 hour day) you could have 6000 a day on just one route. Figure several routes and multiply by that figure. And 20 cars an hour may be a very low number in some cities. It is hard to imagine the number of people who travel in an urban area at any given time and how their trips may track out over the routes. One trip could use multiple routes. In commuter services, 8 car trains leave outer terminals empty or with fewer than 10 passengers but have standing room only when it arrives at its final destination; reverse from inner city to outer terminals.. Just because the 8 cars can handle 130 people doesn't mean all 1040 ride the full route or that 200 might ride just part of the route giving the train a total of 1240 passengers all with seats. And the full route riders are all but non existent and enroute turnover is greater than a commuter train when you are talking streetcars and subways...and buses. So 60,000 or 600,000 may be reasonable numbers until you assemble all the data.
Find factual support for your "numbers." 600,000 is reasonable? No it isn't. It is absurd to contend one streetcar line is carrying that number on a weekday.
Phoebe Vet To keep my argument in perspective please remember that I don't think rail belongs in the street, but should have it's own ROW.
Phoebe; A modified view. I have only had experience with one blended system -- The Portland, Or light rail and streetcar system.. IMHO you are absolutely right that light rail should be in its own ROW. Portland light rail with its limited stops mostly does that by using separate ROW in the downtown & completely separate outside of downtown. Of course it has to cross streets but more importantly it only stops at certain streets and not every street ( unlike most bus routes ). The street car line connects by crossing the light rail lines and does the stops at almost every cross street. That system seems to really revitalize the down town Portland area
That operation almost seems llike an express train / local train system much as NYC does on its Manhatten & Queens subways although the routes in NYC are parallel.
. So what are some answers ?
1. There can even be sharing of tracks by the 2 systems but no stops by street cars on shared track.
2. Continue light rail on separate ROW such as you have in CLT.
3. Both systems should have pre-emption circuits over traffic control lights. The best system of preemption is one I observed having the light rail preempt a traffic light(s) and the next stop just after a traffic light instead of the traditonal stop at a corner just before crossing a street. The stop pre- emption also allows last minute riders to cross along the track direction.
4. You will need to tell us how Charlotte's street car is supposed to work and how it actually works when in full operation?.
5. I am not so sure that ATLANTA'S street car system will work with its subway as the street car line is planned to wander a long way from MARTA stops.
Phoebe VetI agree with your argument, but, unlike NJT, intra urban rail, like light rail, subways, and street cars do not worry about each passenger having a seat. The Siemens S70s used here in Charlotte claim a capacity of 236 each but have only 68 seats.
Dave,
You are right that transit can accommodate many more riders than there are seats. New Jersey Transit operates both trains and buses with people standing; a lot of people standing. For example, during the evening rush hour it you get on a Trenton bound train at Newark it is very unusual to get a seat. Yet many riders do get on at Newark, not only those who work in New Jersey but also those who work in lower Manhattan and take the PATH to Newark.
Your second point is that a rail line in Charoltte now carries 15,000 people a day. I expressed skepticism that a single bus line could keep up with 60,000 people a day.
John
Henry,
All I would add to your post is that it is common for people to live in different places along any transit line. However, a great many of them get out at one stop in order to go to work. In the morning transit tends to fill up all along the line and empty out at one station; in the evening the opposite is the case.
This is perhaps less true today than it has been in the past. One result of suburban land patterns is that people work in more places. This gives rise to some people leaving earlier and also to reverse commuting.
To some extent we can encourage this. For example, the Robert Wood Johnson hospital is right next to New Jersey Transit's New Brunswick station.
I expect the street car in Charlotte to be a boondoggle. The mall that was supposed to anchor one end of it is now closed, and the road where it will run is an already too narrow main road that cannot afford to lose a lane. The small part that is actually under construction will not contribute much, if at all, to traffic reduction.
The photograph was not taken by me. I would credit the creator if I knew who it was.
The part that is actually under construction runs from the arena to Presbyterian Hospital. It is six stops along the bottom center on the map.
The light rail, on the other hand, has been very successful..
Phoebe VetI strongly support rail in high density corridors but I do not support putting rail in the street mixed with rubber tire traffic.
In an ideal world even rubber tired buses would not mix with private vehicles. Usually when they do the transit moves slowly. But sometimes we have to compromise. As those modern philosophers, The Rolling Stones, have observed:
"No, you can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime, you just might find
You get what you need"
One of the biggest problems urban planners have is finding rights of way for transit services...can't buy the land so use the street I guess.
henry6One of the biggest problems urban planners have is finding rights of way for transit services...can't buy the land so use the street I guess.
The phrase "self fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind.
There was a time when roads were built for street cars. Then the system was abandoned and the roads were given over to other vehicles.
What we might have done is, as the demand for streetcars waned in the 1930's, provided some roads for private vehicles and other roads for street cars, balancing the number with the needs. We didn't do that. We simply trashed our streetcar system. What we have is the result of wrongheaded decisions.
Roads were never built for streetcars....streetcars were built on roads and the population got the benefits of cheap transportation and electricity brought to their houses and they didn't have to walk in the mud anymore.
John WR] Dave, In an ideal world even rubber tired buses would not mix with private vehicles. Usually when they do the transit moves slowly. But sometimes we have to compromise. As those modern philosophers, The Rolling Stones, have observed: "No, you can't always get what you want But if you try sometime, you just might find You get what you need"
When you place an inflexible system like rail into an already over burdened transit corridor like an urban road, you don't make traffic flow better, you make it worse. Buses ARE the compromise.
henry6streetcars were built on roads and the population got the benefits of cheap transportation and electricity brought to their houses and they didn't have to walk in the mud anymore.
Well, Henry, when you're right you're right. Roads came first. And then came streetcars and the benefits of cheap transportation. And then we lost those benefits.
Phoebe VetWhen you place an inflexible system like rail into an already over burdened transit corridor like an urban road, you don't make traffic flow better, you make it worse. Buses ARE the compromise.
You sound like a guy who has been driving in back of a street car. I hope you stay out of the way when it turns and avoid those wide swings.
One thing is sure. New Jersey Transit ain't gonna build no street car lines in New Jersey.
John:
No I have not been stuck in traffic following a street car, but I did have to walk 6 blocks to the Amtrak Station in Baltimore because the light rail was blocked by a traffic accident near Camden Yards. The light rail was not involved in the accident, the tracks were just blocked. We were no where near the accident, but we needed to transfer to the blocked train to get to the station and it wasn't running.
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