Does anyone know if it's possible for an EMU to collect power from both over-running and under-running third rail systems, switching between the systems "on the fly"?
When the Long Island RR line to Grand Central Terminal opens later in this decade, some of the trains that currently go to Penn Station will be diverted to Grand Central. This will free up space at Penn Station for other trains. The local media have published statements from Metro North, the sister commuter line to the LIRR, about rerouting some of their New Haven and Hudson line trains from Grand Central to Penn Station, to allow their riders access to Manhattan's west side.
My question about the third rail concerns the Hudson line trains. The LIRR uses an over-running third rail system, Metro North uses an under-running third rail system. Penn Station has over-running third rail throughout, including the entrance to the station from the Empire (Hudson River) connection along the west side of Manhattan that the Hudson line trains would use.
Got a lot here. First, yes, the two have different third rail shoes, the LIRR atop and the MNRR below. However, there is no problem with the East Side access of the LIRR to GCT as they will not run onto MNRR track, they will be another level below the current lower level in fact. And there is also a patented (?) universal shoe that will do the trick. Both systems are 600V I believe, so there is no switching on the fly as for the power applications. Penn station with the Empre connection does not come into play here either right now because there is no plans to bring MNRR trains into Penn via this route. Any MNRR trains coming down from CT via the Hell Gate bridge route would rely on the overhead catenary so there is no third rail issue.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
As built, the New Haven's FL9s had a shoe that worked on both NYC (MNRR) and LIRR third rail, controlled by air cylinders on the trucks. The universal feature wasn't used too much, as most FL9s were in GCT service, and the few that visited Penn tended to be the regularly assigned ones. Most FL9s were equipped with fixed shoes in the 1970s after CDOT eliminated the last low platforms in the former NH district (MN New Haven Line) Amtrak's FL9 MK rebuilds did have air operated shoes that were used from time to time on MN third rail. The P32s that Amtrak and MN have have two different types of movable shoes. MN prohibits Amtrak P32s from operating with the shoes in position to contact the third rail.
What all this means is that any equipment operating regularly in a mixed environment needs special shoes that have to be carefully adjusted. MN has used NJ Transit equipment in the past to avoid having to remove the fixed MN shoes for operation through the East River and Hudson tunnels to the Meadowlands.
But, in effect, couldn't the MNRR ConDot MU's be used into NYP (and thus all the way to Phila, D.C. and Harrisburg) because of the pans?
henry6 But, in effect, couldn't the MNRR ConDot MU's be used into NYP (and thus all the way to Phila, D.C. and Harrisburg) because of the pans?
Since ConnDOT converted their section of cat to 60 Hz (cycle) are they still buying equipment that could operate on 25 Hz cat into NYP ?
There are two separate issues here. CDOT MUs aren't set up to operate on 25Hz (Amtrak south of New Rochelle) while at least some of NJT's units can operate either way, so they wouldn't be able to get to Penn Station with their own motors in the first place. The other problem is that some or all CDOT MUs have fixed third rail shoes. If the old C-shaped knockoff castings still exist on the LIRR third rail, the shoes would get knocked off to prevent damage to the third rail, even though they weren't in use.
There was a good discussion on a different thread a while ago about why changing frequency and/or voltage requires special equipment and setup.
I did not know the ConDot cars had different power...but come to think of it, it makes sense or else they would not have to use NJT trainsets for the Meadowland Sports Service.
There are two fundamental related questions.
1. What is the transformer set up on the new M-8s ?
a. Are center tap transformers installed on the M-8s ? At present the units operate under 12.5 v 60 Hz which is the current power from west New Rochell - New Haven. If center taps are installed then the -M-8s could operate from New Haven - BOS South station under AMTRAK's 25Kv 60 Hz power and more importantly under the proposed electrified commuter rail on AMTRAK's New Haven - Springfield line which would be 25 KV 60 Hz power.
b. All indications are that dual freq transformers ( 25 & 60 Hz ) have not been installed on the M-8s. That is due to 25 Hz / 60 Hz transformers are much heavier than just a 60 Hz transformer either with center tap or not.
2, There are indications that AMTRAK's rebuilding of the New Rpchell CAT & power installed 60 Hz. . There was also some debate if it was 12.5 Kv or 25 Kv. However there has not been any definite indication either way. Someone needs to ask a nyp -bos crew member what the story is ??
3. If #2 is the case then only the dual use shoes would be necessary.
What strikes me is the legacy of having so many different operators of commuter trains. It seems like the old days when railroad companies did not want to connect with other railroad companies. Each railroad operator seems to have its own unique electrical operation so that operating on more than one of them is at best difficult. I suppose eventually all of this will be unified but change takes a long, long time.
blue streak 1 2, There are indications that AMTRAK's rebuilding of the New Rpchell CAT & power installed 60 Hz. . There was also some debate if it was 12.5 Kv or 25 Kv. However there has not been any definite indication either way.
2, There are indications that AMTRAK's rebuilding of the New Rpchell CAT & power installed 60 Hz. . There was also some debate if it was 12.5 Kv or 25 Kv. However there has not been any definite indication either way.
Since it's adjacent to 12Kv Metro North, it would make sense to keep it 12 Kv in the NY terminal area for the tighter insulation clearances in tunnels, etc.
The M-8's can NOT run on 25 Hz power, but are equiped with dual system third rail shoes.
all except for first 38 cars are equiped with the new shoe mechanism.
The cars if used to NYP will not use Catenay, but run of LIRR third rail from Gate to NYP.
currently Gate to Harold does not have third rail or a system to power it(substation)
for Amtrak and NJT clearances in NYP do not allow for re-electrification at 25Kv so any future plans must be made for 12.5Kv 60 hz
Post-Sandy power issues suggest that the 25Hz electrification is still in effect on the Hell Gate bridge line. I'm not aware of any Amtrak-owned 60Hz south of New Haven.
From what I understand, Midtown Direct service is not being provided by NJT MU's, which require a full stop and changeover outside the vehicle to go from 60Hz to 25 Hz. It is being provided by push-pull electric locomotive trrains, with locomotives like Amtrak's, that can operate on all three NE-area electrifications, 12,500V 60Hz, 25,000V 60Hz, and 12,000V 25Hz. From what I understand, the new M8 cars, in addition to adjustable 600V third-rail shoes (but not adjustable while in motion!), have both 12,500V and 25,000V 60Hz capability, but NOT 25Hz. Before they run into Penn, the Hell Gate line has to be converted to 60Hz. I thought this had been done already, and all that was left was Harold Tower to Penn. This latter probablly will require conversion at least as far as Newark if not further.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.