MidlandMikeMaybe the line is still one zone to build ridership on this relatively new operation.
Maybe you are right, Mike. I seem to be falling into an argumentative rut which is something I want to stop. It is not reasonable for me to expect you or anyone else to give me a really authoritative answer here. All any of us can do is to second guess.
What we know is that the Riverline fare is set as one bus zone, currently $1.50. If you do decide to ride be sure to buy and validate your ticket or you risk a $75 fine.
Happy New Year, John
John WR New Jersey Transit does have people who make spot checks to see that you have purchased a ticket and that you have validated it by putting it into a validation machine. A ticket is good for two hours from the time stamped on it by the validating machine. If a ticket checker finds you without a valid ticket you are issued a summons and fined $75.00. The ticket checkers get on at random stations and check each passenger's ticket. I have seen them many times. They are no on all trains, though. Tickets are purchased from a ticket vending machine and inserted into a validation machine which stamps the time and date. For a zone system all that would be needed is to have the validation machine stamp the name of the station where the ticket was validated. On the Riverline the ticket checkers are very through. A train pulls into the station. They check the tickets of all people getting off and the train waits for them. They then get on the train and check tickets of all people riding. The engineer sits in a closed booth and there is no way to communicate with her or him. When the ticket checkers are not on the train there is no person such as a conductor who is in charge.
New Jersey Transit does have people who make spot checks to see that you have purchased a ticket and that you have validated it by putting it into a validation machine. A ticket is good for two hours from the time stamped on it by the validating machine. If a ticket checker finds you without a valid ticket you are issued a summons and fined $75.00. The ticket checkers get on at random stations and check each passenger's ticket. I have seen them many times. They are no on all trains, though.
Tickets are purchased from a ticket vending machine and inserted into a validation machine which stamps the time and date. For a zone system all that would be needed is to have the validation machine stamp the name of the station where the ticket was validated.
On the Riverline the ticket checkers are very through. A train pulls into the station. They check the tickets of all people getting off and the train waits for them. They then get on the train and check tickets of all people riding.
The engineer sits in a closed booth and there is no way to communicate with her or him. When the ticket checkers are not on the train there is no person such as a conductor who is in charge.
So if the ticket specified how many zones it was good for and where it was bought, the ticket checkers would know if you rode past the zone you paid for.
Maybe the line is still one zone to build ridership on this relatively new operation.
henry6Yeah. on the HBLRT State troopers got aboard and checked tickets holding the car in the station.
On the Newark Lightrail there is an underground fare which is about half of the regular fare. That seems to offer no problem to the ticket checkers.
But when ever I've seen checkers on the Newark Light Rail they never get on the train; they are in the station and check tickets of people getting off. I've seen them at Washington Street, Military Park and Newark Penn Station. It does strike me that they can be evaded by watching or them and simply staying on the train. Even at Penn Station if you want to transfer to the light rail to Broad Street you stay on the train after the discharge point, the train makes a U turn and you get off where other people board. I suspect some people know this and do it.
Yeah. on the HBLRT State troopers got aboard and checked tickets holding the car in the station.
As for the inability to check tickets for zone authority is quite possible the reason for one price fits all.
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Do they already have fare-collectors on the trains who could enforce multizone fares? If not, would the few increased fares cover the cost of the extra personnel?
henry6 Or maybe, as I hinted, it is designed to drain people away from the highways because of congestion or pollution and is thus cheaper than building more highways which the air can't absorb, the land can't handle, and the State cannot afford.
That could well be a reason. The Riverline has parking lots along the route and all or most of them are free. That is often advertised. A fellow worker of mine lived a short drive from the line and found taking it a better way to get to work than driving even though the parking lot at work is also free.
I think the fact is that they are two different creatures and thus two different marketing operations. Or maybe, as I hinted, it is designed to drain people away from the highways because of congestion or pollution and is thus cheaper than building more highways which the air can't absorb, the land can't handle, and the State cannot afford.
But I stand corrected as NJT in NJ does use a semi zone fare system on its rail lines. And while not equal, they do appear to be close in fares charged.
henry6As far as standardizing fare policy. Not really.
Well, Henry, you sound like you know something I don't. What I say is based on my memory of what I read in the newspapers when NJT instituted are zones. They certainly do exist for trains. However, I understand you to mean that on the Newark Divison and the Hoboken division the zones are not equally long. Is that what you do mean?
As far as Metro North segments are concerned, fares within New York State (on the Port Jervis line and the Pascack Valley line) are set by Metro North and not by NJT. Metro North's fares are lower than NJT's. NJT reduces its own fares on these lines so that a NJT fare will never exceed the Metro North fare to Suffern. If it didn't do this New Jersey Commuters from some closer in station would just buy a ticket to Suffern but get off at their closer in station. I assume that would cause problems for NJT.
Your analysis of Riverline fares as a two zone system is fascinating. I've never seen statistics on trip distance. I don't even know if such statistics exist. However, coming from Trenton the second stop is Cass Street. Mercer County Welfare offices are at Cass Street and a lot of people get on and off at that stop. I suppose that a single fare makes for easier operation. However, why limit the charge to only one zone? Wouldn't at least a single 2 zone charge be more reasonable?
As far as standardizing fare policy. Not really. There are fare differentials from Newark Division to Hoboken Division lines, even MNRR segments. The River Line differs from other lines in that it is an interurban as opposed to a street trolley like both the Hudson and Newark light rail operations. Also I look and see that either Camden or Trenton could be zone one or A arbitrarily which would cause some confusion...the line was forced on NJT and designed politically, so whatever is done is different than an in house transit project. And again, going back to the zone idea, if you look at Camden and Trenton both filling cars outbound and changing the whole passenger population per run at least by 90 or so percent across the trip, then zone fares won't do any good and the single fare works well for rider and operator. I.E., in effect both Trenton and Camden are zone one and somewhere in the middle is a breakpoint where the zone ends at a virtual location and creates two equal segments. I think a zone fare system would have diminishing returns or confusion...it is treated like a rapid transit subway line rather than a bus. And if it lessens the use of bus, it is an environmental and gridlock panacea for little cost.
Henry,
I'm afraid I don't follow your line of thinking here.
When New Jersey Transit started the agency took over several more local transit agencies. One thing they did was to standardize fares for trains, buses and light rail although for historical reasons Newark Lightrail seems to use bus fares. However, Newark Lightrail does use zones and traveling more zones costs more money. For some reason the Riverline is an exception to fare policy for every other NJT operation in the state. I don't know why that is or why it should be.
If, as you say, few people ride the whole length of the line I'm sure there are many who ride more than one zone.
John
As I said, the number who ride the whole length is few. But also it is a different marketing scheme.
From Camden to Trenton on the parallel bus no. 409 is 7 zones and the adult fare is $4.40. This compares with $1.50 for the same distance on the Riverline. So why should Riverline passengers get free zones after the first zone?
It is also based on the fact that few probably will ride the entire line. I don't know if that is a true reflection of the passenger counts or not. The several times I've ridden seem to be crowded out of Camden then sort of emptying down but building up again upon reaching Trenton.
henry6The public still rebels holding back a lot of public transit projects over the last 100 years on fare price alone!
To my mine the Riverline fare shows what a large and powerful bureaucracy can get away with when it wants to. The Riverline is about 34 miles long. Its fare, $1.50, is the same as a one zone bus fare. On the paralles 409 bus line the fare is several times that much. Of course a great many Riverline riders are people with low incomes but the same can be said of NJT bus riders. Why one group is deserving and the other group is not is a mystery to me.
The River Line to Phila over the bridge would not be the River Line as it would never get to Camden from the north, its marketing and design were not for that purpose...maybe if it came up from Paulsboro it would have merit, but even then with diesel cars instead of electric is cause for concern. Philadelphia area people are accustomed to having to change from subway to trolley or bus to commuter train, more so than New Yorkers, especially Long Islanders! So changing to PATCO is not a factor. Rock bottom prices are what the New York State Legislature and the New York City Council gave to the transit riding public by not allowing Astor to raise his nickle price he set with his first turn of the Century fare until the mid century. The public still rebels holding back a lot of public transit projects over the last 100 years on fare price alone!
oltmanndThe line was supposed to be extended into the capitol area of Trenton, but has not as yet.
You are absolutely right, Don, and extending it would have made it even more successful. The State of New Jersey has many of its offices in and around the Capitol area. Bringing state workers close enough to their work paces so they would not have to take a connecting bus would have been a real incentive for a lot more people to ride the Riverline. There are also organizations connected with the state that have offices close to the capitol area as well as the Federal Courthouse, Trenton City Hall and Mercer County Community College.
Perhaps! Since there is no way to test the alternative hypothesis, i.e. midtown Atlanta would have developed anyway, there is no way to know for sure the impact of MARTA on the development.
According to the 2010 census, the Atlanta Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area (SMSA) has a population of approximately 5.3 million. The Houston SMSA has a population of approximately 6.1 million whilst the San Antonio SMSA has a population of approximately 2.2 million.
Both of the aforementioned Texas cities have had dynamic downtown growth over the past decade. Both cities rely on buses for public transit, although Houston has a short light rail line. The impact of public transit in both cities is relatively light. Approximately five per cent of the SMSA population use it. The percentages are considerably higher for people living near one of the transit lines (commuter rail, light rail, express bus, etc.)
According to the Texas Transportation Institute, of the 10 worst traffic cities in the United States, as measured by time wasted in traffic jams, LA is number 1. Atlanta is 3 and Houston is 4. DFW, which has the most extensive light and commuter rail systems in the southwest, is Number 6. Like most surveys of this kind, the methodologies for arriving at the conclusion are suspect, but they suggest that public transit is not the robust solution that many people seem to believe.
Commuter rail and light rail are transit solutions. Whether they are the best solution for an area depends on a number of variables. Most importantly, however, it depends on framing the problem correctly, examining all of the potential solutions, and implementing the most effective one(s).
The argument that commuter rail and light rail prompt commercial development along their rights-of-way has merit. However, if the population of a community is growing, people need places to work, live, shop, etc. Transit shifts some of the development location, but the facilities will be built, ala Houston and San Antonio, irrespective of whether the community opts for rail (commuter or light).
But if one changes from SEPTA to subway, trolley or PATCO when reaching Philadelphia, the RiverLine-PATCO trip might be somehow more attractive.
The Riverline is rather interesting. It generally was thought to be "throwing a bone" to South Jersey in order to keep support for the big dollars spent by NJT in the north. It flunked the test needed to qualify for Federal funding, but got funded by NJ anyway.
The original ridership projections were wacky on the high side - 7000 passengers a day. They were revised downward by half. They hit those numbers right off and are now beyond the original "wacky-high" numbers.
It was the first design-build-operate contract for NJT. Bombardier did it all. (and is still doing it?)
It was the first line to use "temporal separation" to allow non-compliant light rail vehicles to mix with freight operations. Whether or not this was a good thing is debatable.
The line was supposed to be extended into the capitol area of Trenton, but has not as yet.
There was to be a companion line from Camden to Glassboro, but it was shouted down by NIMBYs before it even got to the planning stage. Now that the Riverline has been pretty successful the NIMBYs are doing an about face. But, now there is no money.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
blue streak 1Atlanta's MARTA is just now seeing developments along its heavy rail line that is some 30+ years old.
I'd say that Midtown Atlanta doesn't happen at all w/o MARTA. The growth and rejuvenation of Midtown has been rather amazing over the past couple decades.
IMHO light rail economic development along a line is almost always too optomistic in the short run but greater in the long run. Dave ( Phoebee Vet ) can certainly tell us how development has come in spurts in Charlotte. Too many things can happen such as a large business closing down or a new one coming into a city. Economic times can hit a recession then a boom can happen. there is a problem of our collective expectations being of the fast food variety. Each location will develop at a different pace.
Atlanta's MARTA is just now seeing developments along its heavy rail line that is some 30+ years old.
It is not quicker Trenton to center-city Philadelphia than SEPTA. But it is less expensive, more scenic, more fun, and only minutes longer. It does involve a change, however, at Camden, either to PATCO (additional fare, but still cheaper overall than SEPTA) or to a free-transfer NJT bus.
It was an amazing opening reaching passenger loadings way beyond what anyone expected! It is very unique with the diesel vehicles. I can see that it is working for commuters...about 60 minutes Trenton to Camden then a quick jump across the River on PATCO or bus, a lot cheaper and quicker to center city than SEPTA, too. For historicaly minded, and for rail buffs, it is a must ride...along the orginal C&A route from Bordentown, beautiful downtown running is several locations along with a very sylvan setting, then the long gone industrial buildings including the Roebling mill where the cable was made for the likes of the Brooklyn Bridge and the Lackawaxen D&H canal bridge...
I do recall, Henry, NJT saying there was no transit need for the Riverline. NJT was and is running bus no. 408 and the route parallels the Riverline. However, Riverline fare is set at a one zone bus fare, now $1.50. The bus fare is a lot more.
Another thing to note about the River Line: NJT didn't want it but it was forced on them by the legislature!
In 2004 New Jersey Transit built the Riverline, a light rail train between Trenton and Camden that runs along the east bank of the Delaware River. It was expensive. When it was built the reason given was for economic development of the land along the line. It was generally agreed that even if rider projections came true (and they have) the line still would not pay for itself our of passenger revenues. Here is an articles that looks at development along the line since it was built in 2004:
http://snjbp.com/node/22361
One interesting aspect of it is that it uses a diesel engine rather than electric power from an overhead wire.
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