Christmas trees are usual and beautiful and TRAINS always has a fine Holiday issue. I don't think that most non-Chistians object, because we recognize that Christians who believe in the Eternal are a majority of the USA public. I always enjoy the specific TRAINS issue. And Amtrak did have a beautiful Menorah at 30th Street Station last Hanukah. I don't think Chirstians objected. I think the Founding Fathers meant Freedom OF Religious, and not "Freedom From Religion." But I would like to hear other's (polite) opinions. This refers to rail transit facilities only, not school prayer, not oaths of public office, monumnets, etc.
The reason I thought of asking this question, is this morning, after the last morning service at my Yeshiva where I studied that specifically requires waving the Lulav and Ethrog, after sleeping over in the Yeshiva's Succah, I finally noticed (after missing it all week) a Sucah on the indbound platform of the Citypass Jerusalem Light Rail Amunition Hill Station, where I changed from one bus to another to get from the Yeshiva to my apartment. In translation, from the Hebrew, the large sign said:
Happy Holiday to all Light Rail Riders and Children of Israel from Citypass, and have a pleasant ride.
Of course we have lots of Arab riders and some Christians also. And drivers (engineers in the USA)
While riding the 52 bus connection to my apartment I thought it over. Rather than destroying my own Lulav and Ethrog on the floor of the Succah of the synagogue closest to my apartment (originally my intention), I took another 52 bus back to the station and left my lulav and Ethrog for someone else to use. After waving it (without the prayers, which should not be repaeated unnecessarily) in the presribed manner. And then the 52 back to my apartment. (I use a monthy pass for Jerusalem transit travel.)
Mr. Dave, you're absolutely correct when you say the Founders wanted freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion. Let me quote the first sentance from the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Some people seem to forget the second half.
By the way, if any of you out there have never read the Constitution of the United States, I suggest you do. Certainly it's in 18th Century English, but it's well written and easy to understand. Quite an eye-opener when you do read it.
I myself welcome the messages that people from other religious traditions are generous enough to want to share with me. You have my best wishes for these and the coming holidays.
And I agree with your understanding of religious freedom in America. The Founding Fathers were aware of religious persecution in Europe and were strongly opposed to that. To my mind objecting to the public display of religious beliefs in a mild form of that kind of persecution.
It is not the Atheists or any non Christian religion who start the war every Christmas. Several religions and cultures celebrate one holiday or another around the first of each year. Businesses who count all of those people as clients usually use the generic greeting "Happy Holidays". It means which ever holiday you are celebrating, we wish you well. YOU are free to use whichever greeting is appropriate for you. Everyone else enjoys the same right. To demand that the government or any business celebrate your holiday exclusively is arrogant and offensive.
The evergreen tree symbol predates Christianity by centuries. It was used to celebrate the winter solstice (Dec21) long before the birth of Jesus. Christians didn't adopt it's use until the 16th century.
The government is required by the First Amendment to remain neutral. If a government allows a Christmas display on public property then it must also allow similar access to any other group. Some governments avoid the hassle of trying to administer that by just denying all requests from everyone.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Nothing wrong with saying "Happy Holidays", nothing new about it either. In the 40's the Jersey Central used to put up a big "Happy Holidays" sign in their Jersey City terminal, and probably continued the practice until they went out of the passenger business, although the photo I saw was a shot from around 1946 or so.
Israel as a country was created by it's religion. It has adopted a secular form of government rather than a theocracy as have so many countries that view themselves as extensions of their religion.
In the course of human history more people have been killed in the name of their religious beliefs than any other form of human conflict.
Personally, I believe what I believe and you are welcome to whatever your beliefs may be.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I always thought "Happy Holidays" encompassed the whole Christmas/New Year mashed up timeframe.
And heaven (heh) forbid some poor overworked and obscenely underpaid clerk says the wrong holiday greeting to some stuck up snob with a broomstick up their backside that takes everything personal.
PS. When I saw this topic, I though it would be about discussing Trinity Rail....
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Phoebe Vet .....The government is required by the First Amendment to remain neutral.......
.....The government is required by the First Amendment to remain neutral.......
That happened in the 1950s, at the same time that they added "under God" to the pledge of allegiance.
Until that time our national motto was "E Pluribus Unum" (Latin for "Out of many, one") but the evangelicals who controlled the government at that time thought we needed to change it.
Actually, "In God We Trust" goes back way before the 1950's. There's a line in the fourth verse of "The Star-Spangled Banner" which goes "Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, and this be our motto 'In God is Our Trust'". "In God We Trust" was on US currency by the time of the Civil War.
Adding "Under God" to the Pledge of Alligiance was done in the 50's as a manifestation of Cold War anti-communism, and it wasn't the first time the Pledge had been modified. Originally it was "I pledge alligiance to my flag, and to the Republic...". It was changed to "the flag of the United States of America" around the turn of the 20th Century so there would be no doubt as to whose flag the children of immigrants were pledging alligiance to, not that anyone really needed to worry about that!
And as to holiday displays in public areas, who cares? Christmas trees, menorahs, or anything else germaine to the season's fine with me. Just adds to the color of it all.
I agree with your last paragraph. Continuing the rest of the discussion will just get this thread locked.
If we keep the current politeness of this discussion, I don't think it will be locked.
I liked all the responses so far. I had forgotten about "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" as catchalls used by some firms and public institutions.
The reminder suggests that I suggest to City Pass that next year on their Succah, they just might change "and all Children of Israel" to "all Children of Abraham." (A Catholic Priest did once tell me that they regard themselves as spiritual children of Abraham.) Before posting, I did check with a teacher-Rabbi at my Yeshiva, and he said in view of the operation and ownership of the light rail line, it would be permissable and perhaps appropriate.
Jerusalem does receive Christian pilgrims who come to celegrate the Succot Holiday, about 10,000 this year.
Firelock76 Adding "Under God" to the Pledge of Alligiance was done in the 50's as a manifestation of Cold War anti-communism, and it wasn't the first time the Pledge had been modified. Originally it was "I pledge alligiance to my flag, and to the Republic...". It was changed to "the flag of the United States of America" around the turn of the 20th Century so there would be no doubt as to whose flag the children of immigrants were pledging alligiance to, not that anyone really needed to worry about that!
Adding "under God" always seemed silly to me. But I live in an area with a lot of Mennonites, and they don't do the flag or pledge thing. Reasoning is that they pledge their allegiance to God, and not a political entity.
That makes more sense to me. Even if it does cause the occasional uproar over some members of a certain old party (who were unaware of that fact previously).
Before I'm locked out I want to ride with you and Phoebe, Dave. I know your train don't carry no gamblers, no crap shooters or midnight ramblers so I want to ride it too.
John WR Before I'm locked out I want to ride with you and Phoebe, Dave. I know your train don't carry no gamblers, no crap shooters or midnight ramblers so I want to ride it too.
No, the train to Hell carries THOSE people. I've read the old poem, it's SCARY!
Firelock,
I think you mean The Hellbound Train. Here is a link: http://www.mochinet.com/recitals/hellbound.html
But I'm quoting from This Train is Bound for Glory: http://www.metrolyrics.com/this-train-lyrics-hank-thompson.html
You're SO right, I meant "The Hellbound Train."
I remember that terrible night when I laid on the bar room floor. I made a vow to change my life and stick to the strait and narrow way. Ever since then I've been righteous and holy.... except for now and again when I take a little nip from my flask. But you don't think that makes a difference, do you?
I debate the freedom of religion VS Government all the time in other forums. There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation out there regarding this topic. People like to say "separation of church and state" over and over. Good luck finding that phrase in the Constitution or the Bill of rights because it does not exist. The first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". The Atheists constantly leave out "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" in their speeches.
You can ask any reputable professor, historian, teacher, or politician if the first amendment was written specifically to ban religion and the Government and they will all tell you no. It was actually written to protect Christians and other believers from the Government. Our founding fathers in their wisdom knew that there was a possibility that one day our Congress could be totally Atheist and would make laws banning Christianity, churches, and the belief in God much like Stalin did.
The first amendment says "Congress shall" . Since most of these issues are with the State and funded by the State they do not involve Congress (such as local public transportation). Furthermore Congress does not vote or fund Christmas tree displays at the local courthouse in the small towns in America. These issues are typically voted on by local city counsel members.
But we still read about these lawsuits and how students can't pray in school and a hundred other issues. The reality is that Atheist rarely if ever win these lawsuits. If they triumph it is nearly always because the school or the origination can not afford hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight them in court so they simply give in.
Many cases have reached the Federal Supreme court which has the final say on these issues. The Supreme court ruled in favor of ,"In God we trust" to stay on the money, Christmas trees and nativity displays on Federal land, "One nation under God" in the pledge of allegiance, the 10 commandments in the courthouses, and many other cases. The Supreme Court determined that the United States was a Christian nation in the 1892 case, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 226 (1892).
"Our founding fathers in their wisdom knew that there was a possibility that one day our Congress could be totally Atheist and would make laws banning Christianity, churches, and the belief in God much like Stalin did."?
That is the most convoluted twisting of history I have ever read.
The founding fathers were not trying to protect Christians from the Atheists. They were trying to guarantee that everyone could practice religion as they saw fit. They never knew Stalin. They had seen what happens when a religion gets control of government. No one is trying to deny you your right to worship. No one cares if your child prays in school. It probably happens a lot during exam week. The objection comes when your religion wants the entire class to participate in YOUR child's prayer. If you want to experience what Christians keep trying to force on others, picture how you would feel if your child came home and told you that the entire class had to pray to Allah several times a day because the Muslims demanded it. Picture how you would feel if the government put an Islamic religious phrase on the currency.
I always though the South Park guys did a good job of cutting thru the chowder when it came to the Holidays and pointing out that its our common values that are more important than our differences:
http://youtu.be/suhbQCsowvM
Have fun with your trains
What the "Founding Fathers" meant in my opinion was to avoid the established church idea that was prevelant in Great Britain and most European countries at the time, which at times allowed some Christians to persecute the other Christians with different interpretations, as well as Jews. Certain of the signers of the Dec. of Ind. were believing Christians(including Roman Catholics), some like Jefferson were professed agnostics or Diests and did not attend church regularly, and some, like George Washington himself, went to the Anglican/Episcopalian chuch regularly, but through writing and personal corrospondance revealed themselves to be theologically in the Diest camp, never referring to the Trinity or "JC". Many of varieties of Christians participated in the Revolution either as soldiers or in raising funds or providing supplies. I can be proud that the Jewish congregation in New York of which I am still a member, founded in 1654 in New Amsterdam, had members involved in all three activities, and that at the Inauguration banquet in Philadelphia, there was table where Kosher food was served.
Also, the Founders were aware of the fact that the established churches in Europe, and in some of the American colonies as well, were supported by taxes on the citizens whether they were members of that church or not, and that's something they didn't want here. Jefferson's Statute of Religious Freedom, enacted when he was governor ended the practice in Virginia.
Let me recommend a book to everyone: "The Founders on Religion- A Book of Quotations" by James H. Hutson, published by the Princeton University Press in 2005. It's an informative and actually quite entertaining read. Those men had something to say about just about everything! A favorite quote of mine is from Ben Franklin: "The difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England is the Catholic Church claims to be infallible, while the Church of England is never in the wrong!" Don't infer from this that ol' Ben was an atheist, he wasn't by any means.
Firelock76 Mr. Dave, you're absolutely correct when you say the Founders wanted freedom of religion, not freedom FROM religion. Let me quote the first sentance from the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Some people seem to forget the second half.
...and unfortunately, many folks misunderstand the first half, partly because of the use of "British English".
The United Kingdom had/has an "established" official state church, the Church of England. Part of your tax money would go to support that church regardless of whether you were a member of the church or not. Certain positions in the military and government could only go to people who belonged to the established state church.
The U.S. constitution was trying to prevent that from happening here by saying both that we have freedom from religion, but also freedom to practice (or not practice) any religion we choose. BTW there's also a clause in the constitution saying you can't use religion as a requirement when hiring or appointing someone for any government job.
That all being said...as an atheist, I really don't mind if a gov't run transit agency puts up something recognizing a holiday that some of it's patrons take part in, and wishing them well.
This forum is supposed to be about trains and too many posts about other topics put this thread at risk of being locked. In that spirit I offer the following book:
This Train is Bound for Glory: The Story of America's Chapel Cars.
The book is available on the internet. You may find it here:
http://www.chapelcars.com/online_book/
It is an excellent book. And discussion is appropriate for this forum. Nothing wrong with discussion of religion or politics or personal matters, as long as they are directly related to railroading.
The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, right? We have had lots of political discussions because of politics associated with funding of rail projects and associated with regulation. Also, segregation and its ending. Religion matters not only with regard to holiday schedules, and trains that don't run on Sunday in some Christian countries, Fridays in Muslim countries, and Saturdays in Israel, but symbols as well. The personal values of some railway men.
Remember the old posting "Realism" by an unnamed engineer about a freight crew that befrended a handicapped kid and thought that they would be fired by the Trainmaster and then found he had lost his own son in a similar accident? If no one remembers it, maybe I should repost it. A real Christmas story for New Years Eve.
Thank you for your gratifying response, Dave. I agree with your perspective about personal beliefs and railroads. It does seem to me Chapel Cars are an authentic piece of railroad history and should not be ignored. Beyond that, of course each person's beliefs are his or her own and I have no desire to change anyone's belief.
American railroads grew up in the 19th century and in those days people had very different views about religion than most of us have today. And then there were a lot of other social issues back then that we today would not want to go back to. But this has made us into the people we are.
I would welcome your Freight Crew story on New Year's Eve.
Here it is:
A Christmas Message from a North American Rail Freight Conductor
Dear Friend
Got a good reality check today.
Everyone has a bad day once in a while, you know, those days where you could care less about any and everything, catch a good case of the blues, and end up feeling really sorry for yourself? Had one of those yesterday, and it looked like a repeat for today. The yard is jammed to the gills with cars, no place to switch them to, more work than we could ever get done ...that along with some personal issues keeping me down in the dumps, having a real good pity party for myself....
There is a young man, now a teenager, who shows up just about every day it isn't raining...he sits across from our yard entrance watching the action on the old XYZ line, and watching us switch. The thing is, he sits in a wheelchair. His Dad brings him up there in the afternoon, around noonish, and they sit, him in his chair, Dad in the van he has, watching, taking the occasional photo, waving at the crews as they go by. I have never really talked to either one of them, other than giving them a few cans of water during a scorching summer day, and sneaking a free cap out to the kid once...didn't really know his story, other than he shows up all the time, and a few of the other regular railfans seem to enjoy sitting with him.
Well, we were sitting there on the lead, blocked by another inbound, while we were trying to go grab another switch cut from the receiving yard...just piddling away time really, when I noticed the van drive up. Dad unloads the kid; they have one of those hydraulic lifts in the side door. He gets the boy all covered up with a blanket, and they are taking in all the sights. The boy keeps looking over at us, we are literally just across the street from them, when I get one of those ideas that usually end up with me having to try to explain to someone higher up why and what I was thinking and doing. I talk with my helper a minute, and he thinks it is a great idea also, so we get down, trot across the street, and ask the kid if he wants to see the locomotive up close....Don't think I would have gotten a better response if I had given him the lottery numbers for tonight! We roll him across the street, Dad grabs the handles, and my helper and I get the wheels, and we carry the chair over the ballast to the side of our motor. This young man is just ecstatic, starts asking a million questions, we are kinda tickled too...so my helper and engineer begin to answer his questions, when they can get a word in edgewise. I was busy watching Dad...the look on his face was worth any trouble we might get into...I lead him away from the locomotive, far enough where normal conversation can be had lower than at a shout.
I ask a few questions of my own, and it turns out the kid was riding his brand new bike on his 12th birthday when a drunk driver clipped him...destroyed the spinal cord in his lower back; he is paralyzed from the waist down. His Dad is beginning to cry a little now, seems the boy wanted to grow up and be an engineer, has always been a train nut, since childhood...Dad swears the kid can hear the trains miles away, you get the idea. Dad and son have a model railroad and do the railfan bit together every chance they get. Dad had tried to buy tickets for the UP 844, but just couldn't afford to get the tickets or the time to drive out to where it was. He is really getting carried away thanking me for letting his son this close to a real locomotive, when my engineer, Bob, comes around the end of the motor, and points over to the dirt access road. Great, our daylight trainmaster is standing there, looking at me with that look which usually means I have to think faster than I normally do. So I wander over, he gives me the third degree, then the speech about liability, injury, getting sued, blah blah blah...the whole time, I am thinking what a Scrooge he is, all the kid is doing is asking questions, and touching the lower hand rail and steps.... Suddenly, I realize the trainmaster has quit talking, maybe a long while ago in fact, because he is looking at me like I am supposed to be giving him either an answer to a question or a load of BS, or both. Now, my mouth and my brain sometimes run at different speeds, the mouth is usually faster of the two, and I usually regret that...today has been a crap day, my feet hurt, its really cold outside.... Before I even thought it through, I just looked at him and said" Dude, what a Scrooge you are, that kid will never get a chance like this again, ever...all he wants to do is look and ask questions...he should be glad he isn't one of your kids...!"...
I didn't wait for a reply, but just went back to Dad, walked him over to the kid, and was about to tell them the party was over when the trainmaster came walking up to us. I was sure I had managed to get myself and my crew pulled out of service, just sure of it...and right before Christmas to boot. The young man, who had no idea who this guy was, or what he was going to do, stuck out his hand and introduced himself, grinning from ear to ear...the trainmaster had no real choice but to shake with the kid...he then tapped me on the arm, and motioned for me to follow him...we go about 10 or 15 feet away, when the trainmaster turned around, and had the oddest look on his face I had ever seen. By now the inbound had cleared us up, so the noise level had dropped a lot, and I swear, the guy sounded like he was about to cry...he pointed towards the receiving yard, and said "You can get to your switch cut now....of course, you might want to run your helper down an empty track to the other end to check for brakes and see if there is a Fred on the end"
Now, this make little sense, as the car department bleeds off these cuts, and removes the EOTs before we ever get a list on the stuff...I look at him, he nods towards the kid, then cuts his eyes up to the locomotive cab...no way...he is telling me to take the kid for a ride, just no way..."I will be downtown for a while, maybe an hour or so, if you need anything" he says, then looks at the kid again, and looks me straight in the eyes, "Be careful, Ok?"...spins around, walks over to his truck and leaves.
So when he is out of sight, I walk back, grab my engineer, clue him in and check to make sure he is good with it...he thinks it is a great idea...we ask Dad if they wouldn't mind going for a ride...I swear the kid looked like he was about to faint...Dad was a little stunned...said he didn't know how we would get the boy up there... Bob is not the brightest light in the yard, but he is one big son of a gun, he just reached down, grabbed the kid, flipped him over his shoulder, and walked up the steps, problem solved. Now, I though we would just give them a ride, but when we got into the cab, Bob had the kid in the engineers seat, explaining what the controls did...I told him lets get over there before anyone notices...he runs standing up behind the kid, who is wild eyed at all of this. We get in the track, pretty much hidden from the yard by the cut of cars, and Bob stops the motor....steps away from behind the kid, and tells him which handle to move, to press down on the independent, move the throttle over here....and we take off, with the kid running the motor. We have close to a 120 cars worth of running room, so the kid gets to run back and forth a pretty good distance...we get down and start to give him hand signals, while Bob stand behind him, telling him what to do...pretty much we screw off for a good 30 minutes, but time well spent...we run Dad back to his van, tell him to meet us at the other end of the yard, let the kid notch it out a few more times, and end up at the north end, where there is a whole lot of nothing but trees and the access road...Dad shows up with the van, we get the wheelchair off the front porch, Bob does his human bench press routine again, and we gotta get back to work before the yardmaster figures out we are doing not a whole lot... The young man looks like he is about to explode he is so happy, Dad is crying a little, my helper is suddenly real interested in the rocks around his feet, I am getting a little leaky too...the kid shakes hands all the way around, they get loaded up, and as they are pulling away, the kid yells out the window, "Thanks again, and you guys have a great Christmas"...
So we skipped beans to make up the time, and when we tied up, I ran up to the tower to talk to the yardmaster, as I was kinda curious as to why the trainmaster did what he did...turns out that, yup, you can guess, his young son was killed by a drunk driver. Boy, do I owe someone an apology or what... So I am driving home, feeling more like a idiot that usual, half of me thinking what I need to say to the trainmaster next time I see him, and half of me feeling pretty good about what we did for the kid, when it hits me...this kid will never get to do the things I take for granted every day...he most likely will never see the inside of a locomotive again, never line a switch, or tie a hand brake...never get to dance with his girlfriend, go surfing or ride a horse...and our trainmaster will never get to go watch trains or build a model with his son, or show him how to run a locomotive. It smacked me so hard I had to pull over and sit a minute, smoke a smoke and think about it all. So you know what? Maybe nothing in my life is really wrong after all, I mean all my kids are healthy, my wife loves me, I am all in one piece, mostly, and in comparison... Hey, ya know what?...I aint got no problems, none at all... I don't normally preach, and I lost my soap box a long time ago, but just this once... Do yourself, and your family a big favor this Christmas, and New Years eve...if you go out to party, and you drink...take a designated driver, or call a cab if have even just a little more than normal...cause trust me, you really don't have any problems, none at all.
Note and Glossary: The writer and location must be kept anonymous, considering the very strict rules of both the USA and Canada on who may operate a locomotive. The word “motor” is still in used on parts of some Canadian and USA railroads to describe a locomotive. This usage began in the days when most locomotives were steam engines, and the words locomotive and engine were reserved for steam locomotives, with both diesels and electrics called “motors.” “UP 844” is a preserved Union Pacific steam locomotive, one of two such that the UP regularly uses in excursion service to remind people of railroads’ history. On occasion it travels on other railroads, also. Many feel it was well chosen as one of the very best of North American steam locomotives. The terms “Fred” and “EOT” refer to “end-of-train device” which replaces the traditional caboose and measures train brake line air pressure and transmits this and possibly other information to the engineer so he knows his freight train is in one piece and brakes are responding to commands. “Cut” refers to a group of freight cars without a locomotive attached, a standard term. “Independent” is the brake that only affects the locomotive, the other being the train-line brake. This is a standard term “Front porch,” again a local term, not universal, the small platform, just in front of the hood on non-streamlined locomotives, with steps on both sides, a help to trainmen in switching freight cars (coupling and uncoupling, throwing manual switches, removing and replacing derails and protection flags and lanterns, etc.).
Thanks for the story, Dave. You're right; it is good to hear about these things during the holiday season. I wonder what happened to the boy in the wheel chair. Did he grow up, get a job? Maybe working in a railroad office? Or what? I suppose we will never know.
What a great story! Thanks so much for posting it Mr. Dave. First chance I get I'm printing it and slipping into my copy of "Trains ay Christmas".
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