Paul of CovingtonAlso, by the way, the last block or so of Loyola before it meets Canal St. is actually called Elk Place, then at Canal it becomes Basin St. (For some reason New Orleans likes to take short stretches of streets and rename them.)
Now that you remind me I remember it all. I used to work at 701 Loyola Avenue which is right next to Union Terminal. At lunch I would go over and play the pin ball machines.
Sampf1943:
"– after a number of delays, including the relocation of power and utilities when workers found a petrified cypress log and an old underground ice house no one knew existed."
Thanks for the update. I had missed it in the newswire. Every time there is a construction project around here, they usually dig up surprises; often it's human skeletons.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
John, yes, New Orleans is more than a place.
By the way, Loyola Ave. is actually an extension of Basin St. Rampart St. runs parallel a block away. Also, by the way, the last block or so of Loyola before it meets Canal St. is actually called Elk Place, then at Canal it becomes Basin St. (For some reason New Orleans likes to take short stretches of streets and rename them.)
Paul of Covington I lived in New Orleans in my teens, and though I'm living about 50 miles away now, a big part of me is still there.
I guess you know what it means to miss New Orleans.
samfp1943he new line runs down Loyola Avenue from New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal to Canal Street.
PS. The new line runs down Loyola Avenue. Loyola Avenue is an extension of Rampart Street but on the (sort of) uptown side of Canal Street, not remotely near Stella and Stanley. If you meet me there we can to to Union Terminal and play the pinball machines.
samfp1943Some of the areas that they want to build the Rampart/St Claude Extention are unbelieveably depressed. Just to spend $124 M just so you could name the line for the Play "A Streetcar Named Desire" sor of boggles the mind.
Sam,
Rampart Street runs along the lakeside border of the French Quarter which is the highest ground in the city. There is no proposal to build a streetcar line into the ninth ward.
If the Federal Grant is for a streetcar line the city does not have the option to use it for other things. The extension you describe may reach Elysian Fields Avenue but at two and a half miles it will not cross it.
Please excuse me now. Blanche just got out of the hospital. We have a date.
samfp1943 One Billion,two hundred and twenty-eight million dollars. Forgive me! but these figures jump out at me from today's TRAINS Newswire. What is that amount of a mix of Federal dollars and local tax dollars going to buy? For startrs in Minnesota you are going to get 11 miles of light rail connecting Minneapolis and St. Paul with a modern version of the old street cars. I am guessing it also gets you some cars to carry the paying passengers on; the prediction is for 41,000 people on a weekday day to ride the system. They have already spent some $145 million dollars on engineering, ROW purchases and construction costs. They are now going to Congress expecting that the US Congress will fund at least half of the Remaining Costs of #957 Million. New Orleans is wanting to expand its current existing system by 2.5 miles. expanding into neighborhoods not currently served. From the French Quarter Canal Street out Rampart to St Claude and branch down Elysian Fields ( which was where Tennessee Williams: A Streetcar Named Desire was set) This little expansion is expected to cost $45 MIllion from Federal Funds and $79 million from Sales Taxes. The few time I have ridden on NOPSI Cars they were a long way from being full, although, I am sure at times they are S.R.O. mostlty, they don't seem to be so the $79 m seems to be overly optimistic, but sures that would never be with politicians in New Orleans. Video of NOPSI Car # 836 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az0P7KNP4_Q&feature=related oR tHIS LINK OF NOLA Trolley cars:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXnJV0tpL7I&feature=related I'm just sayin'! sure looks like a lota money :
Forgive me! but these figures jump out at me from today's TRAINS Newswire. What is that amount of a mix of Federal dollars and local tax dollars going to buy?
For startrs in Minnesota you are going to get 11 miles of light rail connecting Minneapolis and St. Paul with a modern version of the old street cars. I am guessing it also gets you some cars to carry the paying passengers on; the prediction is for 41,000 people on a weekday day to ride the system. They have already spent some $145 million dollars on engineering, ROW purchases and construction costs. They are now going to Congress expecting that the US Congress will fund at least half of the Remaining Costs of #957 Million.
New Orleans is wanting to expand its current existing system by 2.5 miles. expanding into neighborhoods not currently served. From the French Quarter Canal Street out Rampart to St Claude and branch down Elysian Fields ( which was where Tennessee Williams: A Streetcar Named Desire was set) This little expansion is expected to cost $45 MIllion from Federal Funds and $79 million from Sales Taxes.
The few time I have ridden on NOPSI Cars they were a long way from being full, although, I am sure at times they are S.R.O. mostlty, they don't seem to be so the $79 m seems to be overly optimistic, but sures that would never be with politicians in New Orleans.
Video of NOPSI Car # 836 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az0P7KNP4_Q&feature=related
oR tHIS LINK OF NOLA Trolley cars:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXnJV0tpL7I&feature=related
I'm just sayin'! sure looks like a lota money :
OK!
So I am guilty of Raising a Zombie Thread!
Back a couple of years ago I started this on the upcoming NOPSI Street car extention.
Looks like it will up and ruinning for SUPER Bowl Week-end (Feb.3) dedication is January 28,2013 .
The TRAINS Newswire of this date January 22,2013 has the update on this story:
samfp1943 Paul and Johnnie: Found this link and thought you guys might enjoy seeing it: NOLA RTA Cars : http://brookvilleequipment.com/ "New Orleans RTA Canal Street Project"
Paul and Johnnie:
Found this link and thought you guys might enjoy seeing it:
NOLA RTA Cars :
http://brookvilleequipment.com/
"New Orleans RTA Canal Street Project"
Thanks, Sam. Interesting. When they started building the new cars, they used the trucks from scrapped Philadelphia PCC cars, but I guess they used Brookville equipment on some of the later ones.
Paul, Appreciate the coment! Thanks!
NOLA is one of my favorite town since my first Mardi Gras in the 1960's and having my mom live there(in Jefferson) for about ten years was a bonys. I had my reserveds parking place, under the South end of the Causway across from Micky D's. Nobody ever bothered my rig whenparked there!
Was reading in Railway Gazette and found the folingf article:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/new-orleans-tram-project-approved.html
Back to the subject at hand. I lived in New Orleans in my teens, and though I'm living about 50 miles away now, a big part of me is still there. Back in the '50's I think N. O. had a fantastic transit system. For seven cents you boarded and received a transfer good for four or five consecutive transfers to other lines. Headways were such that if you were a half a block away and saw the streetcar leaving the stop, it was no big deal; by the time you walked to the stop, another car was there. We (like most of our neighbors) did not have a family car and got around quite easily.
Now, the RTA seems to see the streetcars as a Disney-like ride for tourists rather than as providing a useful transportation service. The proposed line on St. Claude Ave. makes no sense. For one thing, they haven't been able to strike a deal with NS to cross their tracks just past Franklin Ave., and as planned, anyone going anywhere will have to transfer to a bus after a very short streetcar ride, or the buses will run parallel along the same streets, which makes the streetcar just a tourist ride.
By the way, thanks, Sam for those informative links.
Paul of Covington Johnny, the Desire street car zig-zagged on many different streets, and only a small part of it was actually on Desire St. From the book, "The Streetcars Of New Orleans" by Louis C. Hennick & E. Harper Charlton published by Pelican Publishing Co., Inc.: "Opened: Oct. 17, 1920" "Last car: May 30, 1948" "Original route: ...from Canal and Bourbon, down Bourbon, Esplanade, Decatur, Elysian Fields, Chartres, Desire, Tonti, France, Royal to Canal. On May 6, 1923, the Desire Line was re-routed, from Canal and Bourbon, down Bourbon, Pauger, Dauphine, Desire, Tonti, France, Royal to Canal." This book is a very thorough history of the N.O. streetcars. I was amazed at how frequently tracks were pulled up and re-routed in the early days. It was apparently not a big deal to them. In the 80's through 1995 I used to work in that neighborhood, and I enjoyed following the cracks in the pavement at the edges of the old track bed. When they dug out and repaved Royal St., I was disappointed to lose them, but in a few months,the cracks re-appeared. You can't get rid of hiistory that easily.
Johnny, the Desire street car zig-zagged on many different streets, and only a small part of it was actually on Desire St. From the book, "The Streetcars Of New Orleans" by Louis C. Hennick & E. Harper Charlton published by Pelican Publishing Co., Inc.:
"Opened: Oct. 17, 1920"
"Last car: May 30, 1948"
"Original route: ...from Canal and Bourbon, down Bourbon, Esplanade, Decatur, Elysian Fields, Chartres, Desire, Tonti, France, Royal to Canal. On May 6, 1923, the Desire Line was re-routed, from Canal and Bourbon, down Bourbon, Pauger, Dauphine, Desire, Tonti, France, Royal to Canal."
This book is a very thorough history of the N.O. streetcars. I was amazed at how frequently tracks were pulled up and re-routed in the early days. It was apparently not a big deal to them.
In the 80's through 1995 I used to work in that neighborhood, and I enjoyed following the cracks in the pavement at the edges of the old track bed. When they dug out and repaved Royal St., I was disappointed to lose them, but in a few months,the cracks re-appeared. You can't get rid of hiistory that easily.
Johnny
Deggesty:
"Sam, thanks for the link and the item about Desire. If the line goes out to Poland, it will cross Desire Street going out and coming back. However, it should be named "Poland," since it would not run on Desire at all. I expect tht if I really searched, I could find the route that the Desire car followed. "
samfp1943 Johnny found this text and photos for You on the posted link below:! Here is the linked piece; (Scroll don to see the photos (after the NOPSI Car Roster) http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/~friedman/app3/Page__w.htm FTL:"...A real streetcar named Desire, car 898 is at the outer end of the Desire Line at Tonti and France Streets, taking break time before leaving on its next upbound (inbound) trip. Car 884 is arriving in the background. — Collection of George Friedman.." And while I'm at it; an additional link on The plans for the RTA to extend current services: Linked @ : http://www.heritagetrolley.com/TNERJNewOrleans1.htm FTL:'...The worst kept secret in New Orleans is that RTA planners don't want to stop at rerailing Canal. There are two likely possibilities: ·Desire. Yes, there might again be a “Streetcar Named Desire”, although its route might not closely resemble the old line, abandoned in 1948. For one thing some residents in the French Quarter seem hostile to the idea of tracks once again on Bourbon and Royal streets and the large loop along Desire and France streets is out. But the line might encircle the Vieux Carre along the Riverfront, Canal and Rampart streets and go out Dauphine to Poland and back on Royal to Elysian Fields. Community support is high and planning has started..."
Johnny found this text and photos for You on the posted link below:!
Here is the linked piece; (Scroll don to see the photos (after the NOPSI Car Roster)
http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/~friedman/app3/Page__w.htm
FTL:"...A real streetcar named Desire, car 898 is at the outer end of the Desire Line at Tonti and France Streets, taking break time before leaving on its next upbound (inbound) trip. Car 884 is arriving in the background. — Collection of George Friedman.."
And while I'm at it; an additional link on The plans for the RTA to extend current services:
Linked @ : http://www.heritagetrolley.com/TNERJNewOrleans1.htm
FTL:'...The worst kept secret in New Orleans is that RTA planners don't want to stop at rerailing Canal. There are two likely possibilities:
·Desire. Yes, there might again be a “Streetcar Named Desire”, although its route might not closely resemble the old line, abandoned in 1948. For one thing some residents in the French Quarter seem hostile to the idea of tracks once again on Bourbon and Royal streets and the large loop along Desire and France streets is out. But the line might encircle the Vieux Carre along the Riverfront, Canal and Rampart streets and go out Dauphine to Poland and back on Royal to Elysian Fields. Community support is high and planning has started..."
Back in 1964, I was sorry to see that the Canal Street line was going to be discontinued, and I made a trip down from Wesson, Miss. (by train, of course; I think that I drove to Brookhaven and rode the Panama down and back) just to ride it one more time.
If the streetcar lines truly aid the people who could use them, well and good. If they are simply gimmicks, the money should be spent elsewhere. There is talk here of running a streetcar line on what had been the Rio Grande's ROW (to Park City, originally; in more recent times it ended in Sugarhouse) about two miles east from TRAX to the area known as Sugarhouse. To take the streetcar, anyone in downtown would first ride TRAX south for close to three miles and then transfer to the streetcar. Bus service already exists,and one route does not involve a transfer.
Deggesty samfp1943: Just to spend $124 M just so you could name the line for the Play "A Streetcar Named Desire" sor of boggles the mind. Will the line be named "Desire?" As well as I can tell from the description, it will not reach Desire Street (which the streetcar named Desire at least reached, if it did not run on). If it runs south on Elysian Fields to Peters Street and ends, it will end about three quarters of a mile from Desire.
samfp1943: Just to spend $124 M just so you could name the line for the Play "A Streetcar Named Desire" sor of boggles the mind.
Just to spend $124 M just so you could name the line for the Play "A Streetcar Named Desire" sor of boggles the mind.
While I don't think opposition will evaporate, the higher costs of gasoline will certainly help bolster the need for mass transit. It will mean an easier time selling. Oil states and very sparsely populated states certainly won't agree but urban and more peopled states will certainly be feeling the sting enough. The real question is whether this is going to be an all governement pitch or if business and transportation companies will joining in. Politicians will only give in when the votes are not there otherwise. As long as big oil and big business secret big bucks their way, they will hold the course.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Avianwatcher It is very interesting to see ridership grow in the LA area on Metrolink as gas is well over $3.50 a gallon. If the price continues to go up [as I believe it will] the people around here will just "love" mass transit.
It is very interesting to see ridership grow in the LA area on Metrolink as gas is well over $3.50 a gallon. If the price continues to go up [as I believe it will] the people around here will just "love" mass transit.
A view that several persons have said is very cynical is:
If gasoline prices do increase as some say the demand for mass transit will be so great that the present "apparent" opposition to funding it may evaporate.
The politicians will then say since we must fund this transit you taxpayers will have to pay more in taxes to fund it. "We (politicians) could have cut taxes except for this requirement. Unfortunately many in this country may believe such a statement??
samfp1943 Just to spend $124 M just so you could name the line for the Play "A Streetcar Named Desire" sor of boggles the mind.
Of course the user has to have a need for the service or be convinced it is needed. Also let's not confuse HSR with rapid transit with commuter rail...three distinct operations to meet three distinct transit/transportation needs.
henry6: The items you mention are only a portion of providing service that is the heart of what can be marketed. That in itself is unlikely to change the attitudes toward passenger rail that most Americans have, which is based on the media picture, not personal experience. That will only happen when sufficient services of the right kind are planned, built, and are up and running in the appropriate areas. Then people can be coaxed into trying. If the service is only slightly better than much of the pathetic present-day Amtrak routes, most will not return. So just having economical, on-time, reliable, safe services is not enough. But if it is a real breakthrough (in other words fast, so that it is competitive with alternatives), it becomes a "build it and they will come" event. That is why constructing several appropriate corridors with quasi to true HSR is essential for success. Incremental improvements on many existing routes is money wasted. At the same time, long distance Amtrak service should be phased out or turned over to any interested private land cruise operators.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Perception is a large part of it. You having grown up in Chicagoland and me in the NY Metropolitan area have a view a farmer in mid America or high in the Rockies cannot imagine. But perception can be changed in proper marketing: reliable, must run when scheduled, when said it will run; , economical, at a price that makes it usable to the rider; useable in that it must run when riders need and want to use it; safe for the riders, the community, and the environment.
Perhaps the key to expanding mass transit and Amtrak should be: "Perception and How to Change It"
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs where it was "normal" to take the CNW commuter scoots or the CA&E (Great 3rd Rail) electric until 1957. And in Chicago, the L or a bus. So for people who grew up in the area, riding mass transit is at least something folks consider using if it gets you to work (often not b/c of auto-driven sprawl). Ditto for intercity rail. But for many Americans, there is no mass transit or passenger train experience, and hasn't been since long before their birth. Their knowledge of both comes from TV and movies, and often portrays both in a negative and unrealistic way. So changing the perception many folks have is a tough sell.
Oh, you are right on that one PV! Realize that the Hamburger Joint and La Boef Palace ala Ritz buy the same food stuff from the same supplier in many instance. The difference in the atmosphere/ambience, and the looks of hardware; then the attitude and needs of those who choose one over the other.
Actually, presentation is everything.
Do you think a Mercedes CLS550 is really worth three times the price of a Chevrolet Impala or do you think the Mercedes owner is showing the world that he can AFFORD a Mercedes?
Do you know how many of those Mercedes are company cars? Those same companies could reduce their parking lot expenses is they offered their other employees transit passes.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Schlimm...peoples' perceptions are a very big part of the question of public transit. The more urban the area, the more it is understoood and accepted, especially in older towns like east coast cities and LA and SF. I was told once that only the poor and welfare types rode buses, for instance. In my current home town, probably it is not a far off preception, but I grew up in the NYC area where subway, bus, ferry, and commuter train were acceptable by all walks of life...and still is today. And that, also addresses you Sam, in your living in Dallas and how public transportation is looked at...not on a social economic level, but by the fact that they grew up drinking oil and driving cars and that has always been their way of life and they see no reason to change. In LA, where mass transit, particularly rail mass transit, was once big, then eradicated by the automobile, but now shows a resurgence coupled with how other long time urban centers which always have had public transit all along and know they want and need it, shows the geographical demographical divide public transit and passenger rail faces in the national spectrum.
A lot of people have a perception of public transit as noisy, slow, old, dirty, smelly equipment, with fixed schedules and often filled with loud patrons and no seats available. That perception may be based on first hand experience or the media. In any case, it can be at least partially true. No wonder they stay away. An ad campaign calling it "cool" will probably get laughs.
schlimm I think you are both missing the point. Decisions (including economic ones - look at the field of behavioral economics for more) are often irrational. Perhaps the reason transit and passenger rail doesn't sell is because it isn't perceived by the public as sexy or glamorous? Look at what sells most products: not cold rational facts and logic, but rather sex, violence and lots of bling. Obviously, the rational choice for people in that neighborhood in Dallas would be to take the trolley. Short distance, quick, convenient. But it's not as cool as driving your auto, which if it is a well-off neighborhood, might be some prestige brand.
I think you are both missing the point. Decisions (including economic ones - look at the field of behavioral economics for more) are often irrational. Perhaps the reason transit and passenger rail doesn't sell is because it isn't perceived by the public as sexy or glamorous? Look at what sells most products: not cold rational facts and logic, but rather sex, violence and lots of bling. Obviously, the rational choice for people in that neighborhood in Dallas would be to take the trolley. Short distance, quick, convenient. But it's not as cool as driving your auto, which if it is a well-off neighborhood, might be some prestige brand.
Behavior is a function of its consequences. The economic driver is only one of them. There are many others, as you have pointed out. And most of them have a high emotional quotient.
In Texas, where I have lived for more than 35 years, most people believe the consequences associated with driving and flying beat the consequences of ground based public transport. This is the reason why there is a very limited market for it in the Lone Star state, as well as most other areas of the United States.
Dallas Area Rapid Transit, as well as other transit agencies in the state, has run numerous ad campaigns touting the benefits of public transit. They have appealed to a variety of economic and psychological (emotional) variables, even suggesting that riding the train is cool. It has not had many takers. Less than three to five per cent of the people in the state's major metropolitan areas use public transport not withstanding the investment of billions of dollars in improved transit systems, with Dallas leading the way.
Most people in my part of the country will continue to drive for work, shopping, entertainment, etc. And they will continue to do so until the cost of driving is prohibitive. In 2008 there was a dramatic increase in the number of people taking the bus and train to work. It was, as one will remember, when gasoline hit roughly $4 per gallon. When the bubble broke and gasoline slipped below $2 a gallon, most of the newbie's went back to driving. This evidence suggests that the most important variable in the decision to drive or take public transit is economic, although other variables enter into the picture.
For reasons that go beyond the scope of this post, public transit in the U.S., as well as most other countries, is a public utility. We fund it irrespective of whether it can be supported through the fare box. It can't. So the most important question is how much public money should be spent on transit?
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