If it were not for the condition the dollar is in, I would become a member right away just to get those issues.
Does any member of the Society know whether the last New Haven Railroad Passenger VP, Bill Goodman, is still alive?
If you pull up the website www,.CBFisk.organs.com (or something like it) and get the pages on personal remeniscences on the late Charles B. Fisk, who was the founder of the company and a good friend, (and many believe rivaling G. Donald Harrison and Ernest M. Skinner as North America's greatest organ builder) you will find a short story relating Bill Goodman, me, the composer Danny Pinkham, and the New Haven Railroad. And the Episcopal Church across from the station at Westerly, R. I.
Received yesterday (Aug 2) the latest issue of the "Shoreliner" (Vol.33 - Issue 2). "Shoreliner" is the (color and B&W Photo) magazine of the "New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association".
This issue contains a 36 page history of "West End Freight". It covers service to Oak Point and over the Hellgate Bridge to Bay Ridge. Much detail on Car Float operations in New York Harbor.
The next issue will cover "West End Freight - The Trains" www.nhrhta.org
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Sorry, of course the EF-4's wer ethe ex Virginian, ex-N&W rectifier electrics thjat re-electrified the LIRR Bay Ridge branch (although diesel switchers were still used instead B's). Yes, they were painted McGinnis orange-red and while and one is at the Danbury railroad museum.
Possibly the M-8's will run into Penn Station whenever the Amtrak electrification from Sunnyside and Harold Tower west to wherever is converted to 60Hz. But then no GG-1 restoration operaton unless rebuilt as a rectifier locomotive. YOu are correct about transformer cores. Originally, the idea was to have 25Hz capability, but I guess the added weight and expense doomed the idea. The original FL-9 shoes were dual mode by being double sprung, and yes I rode behind a pair into Penn using electric power. Lack of perfect maintenance doomed that idea. The upper and lower shoe springs had to be balanced, the third rails in good alignment and third rail ramps on both systems in proper alignment. I gues it will be easier to extend the LIRR third rail to the frequency break point on the Hell Gate Bridge approach, and set aside a group of cars for Penn Station operation. However, both NJT and Amtrak electric locomotives can operate on all three AC electrical systems. Anyone know about the dual-modes? Since they will run into Penn Station now, they must be equpped for 25Hz operaton, and it would not take much added expense or weight to allow them to work at both 60Hz voltages.
Dave,
Dutchrailnut has the correct photos of the units I was referring to. EF-4, not EP-4. (The EF-4s were designated as E-33s in the PC era). The EP5s looked rough with their paint peeling. But the time period I was watching this action was 1964-67, before my family and I moved to the north Bronx (near the Allerton Ave #2 EL Train station). Even though I was a kid, the EF-4 stood out to me as the combination of that bricked shaped body and the white/orange horizontal paint scheme was hard to forget!
I was hoping some of you guys that are in your 50s or older might remember the Hunts Point section of the Bronx and the station's history. There are photos featuring that area of the Bronx today, but it seems so difficult to find photos of that same area in the 1960s-70s
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
no one said anything about EF-4's in McGinnis, he just stated orange with white stripe.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johannes-j-smit/5675534011/sizes/m/in/photostream/
As far as I know, EP-4's never got the McGinnis paint jobs, according to the book The New Haven Railroad in the McGinis days. What you saw were EP-3 and EP-2 non-streamlied units, three or four of which did get the McGinnis colors. One streamlined EP-4 and one streamliner EF-3 were prepared for painting with undercoat, and then Alpert (McGinnis' successor) decided to go with the GM plan and buy the additional FL-9's and scrap the electrification, scrap the Van Nes electric repair facilities, and scrap all electric locos except the EP-5's, which were to be retained for pulling trains from Stamford to Penn Sta.
A plan, good or bad is just a piece of paper, unless it is used.
New Rochelle never got the flyover and Amtrak speed is now 45 mph going from/to Hellgate branch.
Regarding my east-of-Shell flyover plan, Passsenger Train Journal has it after MIke Schaeffer expressed interest and Jim Wrinn did not. I think I should be entitled to a few dollars (sheckles?) for its design. I guess PTJ is holding it for a special NYC issue. You could email them asking to see it. A NYC area consulting firm also has it with instructions not to violate in any way a possible PTJ copyright.
Probably Metro North still has the original version in their files some place.
nope transformer is dual voltage, but only 60 Hz, a 25 Hz transformer would have send weight of M-8 way over acceptable.
Having been involved in developement of M-8 , my info is pretty well 100%.
A 25 Hz transformer would need a core of around 120% bigger than a 60 Hz transformer raising weight over twice current weight.
Dutchrailnut The M-8 can not run of 11.5Kv 25 Hz, if it were to be used to NYP it would run off Third rail. only power the M-8's can handle is 25Kv 60 Hz - 12.5 Kv 60 Hz and 700 volt DC.
The M-8 can not run of 11.5Kv 25 Hz, if it were to be used to NYP it would run off Third rail.
only power the M-8's can handle is 25Kv 60 Hz - 12.5 Kv 60 Hz and 700 volt DC.
Dutch: where did you get this information? My understanding was the transfoormer was a dual freq capable? 12Kv 25 Hz is close enough to 12.5 Kv 60 Hz?
The shoe mech's do not have any lift mechanism and current shoe mech's are for MNCR third rail only, there is a design for a lirr/mncr shoe but its not perfected yet, it has no adjustment other than springs
Even when equiped with dual purpose lirr/mncr shoe it can not be used, about a mile and half of catenary between Gate and Harold would need to be made 60 Hz or that section would need third rail and a CD substation.
so for now no M-8's to NYP
BNSFwatcher I never gave any thought about "East Bronx" service, prior to the Hell Gate Bridge or pre-electricication. I just figured it was all freight traffic, back then. Living in New Rochelle, I do remember the 4-motor (or more) lash-ups of the old EF-1 (?) box cabs grinding by, slowly, all night. The EF-2 and EF-3 freight motors were a delight to behold and often pulled TOFC traffic in the daylight, off-rush. Lots of company-owned 4-wheeled trailers. Of course, nothing compared to the later GE EF-5 Rectifier "Jets" in high-speed passenger service.
I never gave any thought about "East Bronx" service, prior to the Hell Gate Bridge or pre-electricication. I just figured it was all freight traffic, back then. Living in New Rochelle, I do remember the 4-motor (or more) lash-ups of the old EF-1 (?) box cabs grinding by, slowly, all night. The EF-2 and EF-3 freight motors were a delight to behold and often pulled TOFC traffic in the daylight, off-rush. Lots of company-owned 4-wheeled trailers. Of course, nothing compared to the later GE EF-5 Rectifier "Jets" in high-speed passenger service.
As a kid in the 1960s, I lived with my family on the 3rd floor of an apartment building underneath the Bruckner Expressway. Across the street was that famous 4-track line that lead to the Hell Gate Bridge and Penn Station.
I clearly remember seeing orange and white striped EF-4 electrics rumbling by with freight trains. There were passenger trains also cruising by, but since the mid 70s, when I became a model railroader and railfan, I had asumed that those were New Haven (later Penn Central) commuter trains I was seeing. Now thanks to the info on this thread, it seems that the passenger trains I was watching were New Haven's hotshots like the Yankee Clipper and Merchants Limited hauled by Jets.
I well remember the station at Hunts Point, which was below the street level. Although closed, it seemed like it was in good shape. I thought that at one time it was accessible during the 60s and one could walk down the stairway to it, but of course childhood memories are not always accurate. One thing I do remember then was hearing what, at the time, was a "choo-choo" sound, which I found out years later was the famous Hancock air whistle. For some reason, even though no NH trains stopped in that part of the Bronx, you could hear it blowing from time to time.
I'm amazed that the NH station, next to Westchester Ave in the Bronx, is still standing so many decades after it was closed.
I read in Dave Mears' (free) weeklyrailrevue@aol.com newsletter that the new C-8 MUs are being delivered by Kawasaki. No local fabrication, or add-ons, mentioned being done at the Yonkers (NY) plant. Great way to spend tax dollars! Sad, but prob'ly a lot cheaper than using any unionized labor in Yonkers. I hope the cars can run into NYP, too.
Off Topic: I also heard that the Staten Island ferries were being towed to Virginia for re-furbishment. Much cheaper, even with the 300+ mile sea tow, than using local (NY-NJ) unionized shipyards. My cousin is an "all ocean/all seas" tugboat captain. He can use the work!
The EP-5 "Jets" introduce the McGinnis paint scheme. They were deliverd shortly after took over the management although they had been ordered by Bucky Dumaine's management.
UPDATE: I got the only copy 'Amazon' offered, the Kalmbach 1968 (?) reprint of the 1916 tome. Paid $29.99, for a $10.00 book. Must be rare! Some interesting thingies in it. The picture of the Pelham Manor station is good. That was a beautiful structure. Was there ever a station on the other side of the 4-, or 6-track Harlem line? I don't recall one from back in 1952. Did the New Haven use the easternmost track bi-directionally for the shuttles? I also never saw an open-platform NH MU car -- way before my time. The book gives a good list, with pictures (albiet small) of seven stations, six in the Bronx. It is a very heavy tome, packed with information, like what type of wainscoating (marble or tile) was use in the men's toilets at various stations/terminals. I do wish Droege had waited a year to publish, after Hell Gate Bridge opened. I like the pictures of GCT, before it was completely decked-over, too. The explanation of the electrification goes well with the cover story in the November issue of Trains, too.
Hays
Thanks for the info. I ordered a "slightly used" volume from 'Amazon' for $26.00, + S&H, yesterday. It has been shipped already! 'Amazon's' "slightly used" books are really like new. I'm impressed, being the cheap Scotsman that I am!
BNSFwatcher Sorry! A 'typo', I assure you. The General Electric Rectifier "Jets" were EP-5s! Wow! What a noise they made, coming into GCT, running around there, and, especially departing with a heavy train!!! One of my regular rides was the 5:29 departure from GCT. First stop: Rye. Zoom!, to say the least. I think they only made six or seven of them. #360 was the "class motor", but I may be wrong. Of course, one only had time for a couple of 'drinkey-poos' on the way home, unless you got on the train early.... Always on-time! Hays
Sorry! A 'typo', I assure you. The General Electric Rectifier "Jets" were EP-5s! Wow! What a noise they made, coming into GCT, running around there, and, especially departing with a heavy train!!! One of my regular rides was the 5:29 departure from GCT. First stop: Rye. Zoom!, to say the least. I think they only made six or seven of them. #360 was the "class motor", but I may be wrong.
Of course, one only had time for a couple of 'drinkey-poos' on the way home, unless you got on the train early.... Always on-time!
Ten EP-5 locomotives were built in 1955 for the New Haven by GE. The traction motor blowers wound up with a whine much like a jet engine, railroad men soon called them the "Jets". Numbers 0370 to 0379 they were rated at 4,000 hp, but, the biggest mistake, no provision to MU the locomotives together. Six remained in service when Penn Central took over and they were renumbered and then called Class E-40. Not being able to be MU with other locomotives, they were removed from service in 1977 and scrapped in 1979.
Check out Stan Fischler's very heavy (#-wise) tome "The Subway and the City". Super! Take, with a grain-of-salt, his descriptions of jaunts outside NYC, but that is a minor point. I hope you will be able tor return to the U. S., and your old job, after Bill and Hillary vacate Chappaqua for the environs of Massachussetts and Ted Kennedy's old job. I'll bet you can't get any good Italian food over there! Schade!
Bill -- wdh@mcn.net
Google books has a link to Passenger Terminals and Trains by John Droege. It has some great old photos of Stations, Equipment and ROW shots of the NH and NY W & B in the East Bronx
I did not bring the sketch with me to Jerusalem, and it is likely that my former partners at the White Plains office threw it out when the move was made to Chappaqua, but I can easily reconstruct it from memory. If Metro North or the Core Committe or both were intersted. I think it would be legitimate that I be paid something modest for my time, however, as Noah never did anything that I know of with my original sketch. With today's computer technology and MSPaint and Photoeditor, I can to a professional looking drawing.
From my memory of reading the William Fullerton Reeves Book published by the New York Historical Society on Manhattan's elevated railroads, the first steam elevated trains to cross the Harlem River into The Bronx from the combined 2nd and 3rd Avenue Elevateds' terminal at 129th street (platforms and tracks running east-west between the two avenues as they did until the Manhattan 3rd Ave el was abandoned) ran to the Willis Avenue station to connect with the New Haven trains. Construction then continued to 149th Street and then to Treemont Avenue, where it rested until extended to Bronx Park (west) after electrification.
It is also interesting that Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, and The Bronx were all linked by steam elevated railroads, if one can also count the cable operated link across the Brooklyn Bridge, which conected with steam el trains at both ends. Staten Island is still left out of the subway system!
The East Bronx passesnger service thus has a long history.
I was being a 'bit' faecetious about connecting New Haven with Port Jervis, and thereby connecting six M-NR lines in doing so. I don't think there would much business, but the scenery is great!
Suggestion: don't anchor your boat under the Poughkeepsie Bridge! You will be 'rained on' by soiled diapers, "Labrador landmines", and plastic designer-water bottles, once the Yuppies start using it in force.
My redo of the New Rochelle "Shell Tower junction definitely provides for three tracks and can be expanded to four, for the line to the East Bronx and the Hell Gate Bridge. At one time there were actually six tracks on this route, separate tracks for the Harlem River Shuttle, for the frieghts, and for through passenger trains.
Incidentally, thinking about the glorious Pelham Manor Station, I see no reason not to believe that the pre-1912 Colonial and Federal did not stop there. It would have made sense, with their only other stop in the NY Metropolitan area (south of New Rochelle) being at the ferry landing for loading on the Maryland. The Harlem shuttle service also existed in steam days, with New Rochelle not only its eastern terminal but also the terminal of much of the then commuter service from GCT. New Rochelle had a coach yard and roundhouse and turntable.
I feel pretty certain that Metro-North - Conn-DOT's plan to provide commuter service into Penn will involve adding a third or even a fourth track to at least part of the route. Three passenger tracks across the Hell Gate with one left for freight makes sense. There is room to expand the fill to accommodate the third track between the point where the freight line leaves to go to Bay Ridge and the approach to Harold Tower. The scenerero for New Rochelle with the current platform arrangement and the east-of-station flyover plan I recommended would be as follows:
Morning rush: Locals to GCT as at present on the southernmost track, expresses on the existing inbound express track with overflow on the outbound express track, all inbound trains to Penn Station, both Amtrak and commuter, on the former pocket track, and all eastbounds on the present eastbound local track.
Evening rush: All trains to GCT on the southernmost track, the westbound local track, all eastbound local trains from either Penn or GCT on the present eastbound local track, eastbound expresses from GCT on either the eastbound or westbound express tracks depending on traffic, eastbound expresses from Penn on either the pocket track or the eastbound express track (largely depending on whether there is a train to Penn in the vicinity), and all trains to Penn on the pocket track.
A second flyover on the Hell Gate line would also be required for maximum efficiency There is plenty of room.
Off peak and nights and weekends could use a variety of arrangements, depending on what track is under maintenance and whether frieghts are in the vicinity, with all freights using either of the two center express tracks.
Use of the pocket track for frieght service, which I do NOT recommend, might require cutting back the concret wall there for clearance!
Hays, my remarks had less to do with a commuter service New Haven to Poughkeepsie as it did on crew and equipment usage.. But the other side is that passengers to and from NJT and Amtrak points would have an across the platform connection rather than an across town connection. Brewster/Wassaic could not be part of the service (as trackage is now) as there is no direct connection to Hell Gate or West Side routes. But the ability to utilize the rail system on a regiona basis rather that commuter route basis is the most important step forward.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
The fourth track could be (easily?) restored over Hell Gate Bridge, etc.. I'll check the new Amtrak TT, if it includes NEC service this time, and check the frequency and spacing of the NYP-Northeast trains. Surely, the 'local/commuter' service would run behind the LD trains and we are talking about only a few miles to New Rochelle and back on the 4-track main.
Methinks running the DP Genesis locos under wire misses some points. It would prob'ly be quicker to get to Poughkeepsie via 125th St.or GCT (and a train change). Better yet, open the NHV-POU direct route via the old NY/CNE tracks (now HRRC/PW/DTRR/M-NR/or abandoned), with M-NR connections at Derby Jct., Danbury, and Brewster, too.! Onward! to Port Jervis via the "Poughkeepsie Yuppie Bridge"!!! "Next stop, Binghampton"! Sure....
daveklepper At the request of a Metro North employee (Noah Caplin), I designed a flyover system for the five tracks merging to four, using the property east of the New Rochelle Station. This flyover system gives greater flexibility of operaton and solves just about all the problems without the extensive house demolition and road closings that are required for the Amtrak plan to do the job west of the station, which would not do the job quite as well. It involves use of all five New Rochelle tracks and does not require the very limited use of the area by freight trains that are not within commuter train clearance to move from use of the existing two center tracks that lack paltforms. But all five tracks are required for passenger service during rush hours when the mix of Metro North and Amtrak is pretty intense. The pocket track, which is connected at both ends, is a valuable third platform track and should certainly not be used just for freight.
At the request of a Metro North employee (Noah Caplin), I designed a flyover system for the five tracks merging to four, using the property east of the New Rochelle Station. This flyover system gives greater flexibility of operaton and solves just about all the problems without the extensive house demolition and road closings that are required for the Amtrak plan to do the job west of the station, which would not do the job quite as well. It involves use of all five New Rochelle tracks and does not require the very limited use of the area by freight trains that are not within commuter train clearance to move from use of the existing two center tracks that lack paltforms. But all five tracks are required for passenger service during rush hours when the mix of Metro North and Amtrak is pretty intense. The pocket track, which is connected at both ends, is a valuable third platform track and should certainly not be used just for freight.
Dave: Do you have ability to post your proposal for this flyover setup or is it classified information??
Oh yeah, there's room all right. And the crux of the service is not to pick up Bronx passengers but to bring people to the west side and or to go further downtown or make NJT and Amtrak connections. It would actually give them a unique "V" service with their Gennies to go from anywhere in CT to Poughkeepsie for equipment and crew utilization!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.