I'd figure this wa sa good place for a thread about the Phoenix Light Rail Project.
I work pretty close to the line and it has been intersting to watch them build it. I wont lie, the construction has been a nightmare, but when it is finished, it should be really nice.
More than likley, it will be a failure for normal traffic. Folks I know are hopeing that it will relive traffic jams and get more cars off the road. But, Phoenix is so spread out, that it is almost impossible to have a commuter service that works. Hence, we have one of the nation's most underused bus systems.
But, it could be great for games down town and events. I know personally, I am looking forward to taking the kiddo on it for an afternoon. For aways, it does run next to the UP tracks coming into town and could make for some intersting railfanning veiws.
Anyone else watching the project build?
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
Charlotte, NC is in the process of building light rail. It is causing lots of arguments. The current project runs alongside a Norfolk Southern right of way and so will not conflict with automobile traffic, but one of the proposed future lines is planned to run up the middle of a very busy existing street. The first line, which is scheduled to open in November is at least 100% over budget, which is endangering the rest of the project.
It's an interesting 25 year project consisting of light rail, commuter rail, dedicated busways, trolleys, and enhanced bus service. It was financed with a 1/2% sales tax which was approved by voters. Opponents are trying to get it put back on the ballot to see if people have changed their mind. Polls are too close to call.
http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/Rapid+Transit+Planning/South+Corridor/Home.htm
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
canazar
what station are you near ?
i saw mesa last spring and the area looked very nice , you will see high ridership
soon after the light rail line opens up ! i do hope the phoenix drivers have more sense
than houstion texas !!! 4 sure !!
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to **** with--- subchat.com dan lawerence 'subwaysurf' mrs madbposta
dont miss you at all doing very nice on 6 new transit forums and dont miss
you at all !! hope you see this dont miss ''watamagotcough'' either !
Why doesn't someone actually build rail TO Phoenix, so that Phoenix will become a more international city? No city fairs well on the international scope without a full blown transportation system (boats excluded).
Although I think the Light Rail will help the area A LOT.
to hell with--- subchat.com dan lawerence 'subwaysurf' mrs madbposta
Howdy Salaam. Sorry about your experience over at Subchat. Some of us do miss your pics over there.
I have to disagree with you. Phoenix has a car culture and you are not going to get folks to wait in 110 degree heat for light rail. The other problem is that the Light rail does not go to the outlaying suburbs where folks reside. A better alternative would have been for ADOT to make a deal with Union Pacific and start commuter rail. New Mexico, Utah, Texas and California already provide the business model.
Unless you happen to reside near the LRT corridor and are going to Downtown Phoenix or Downtown Tempe(ASU) the LRT will be of not convience to you. After the new novelty wears off I think ridership will plummet.
response to trains61
i do suppose people will have to wait in 100+ degree heat just like they do for BUSES !!
[ and waits are long in phoenix for valley metro buses ] !!!!
if you live in the valley of the sun in arizona you are gonna fry in the HEAT
as for that idiot message board ''subchat'' i fail to understand the high importance
of --->>>''SUBWAYSURF'' who is clueless has never met me but stays on the forum
that suckah should have been thrown overboard long ago !!!
you can see my photos on myu flicker website and i am slowly adding all of them
http://www.flickr.com/photos/salaamallah/
subchat.comm will go the way of david pirmanns subtalk - bustalk he ended
this is thier loss not mine i am the king of southern california railfan photography
and i have the largest photo database of the lacmta than anybody and i have shot
a thousand new photos you can also see my photos on nerail
http://transit.nerail.org/
http://transit.nerail.org/bycontributor/?l=A
http://transit.nerail.org/show/?order=byposter&page=1&key=salaamallah
i am also loading my photos on
http://salaamallah.rrpicturearchives.net/
Some railfan points about the impending light rail system out here in AZ.
1, as Canazar states, the light rail tracks (two tracks) parallel the UP line in the area of the Salt River. The line parallels the UP bridge over the Salt, just east of the bridge (west of the Mill Avenue bridge, along the 'Ash St.' alignment). It then breaks off and follows portions of the old SP 'Creamery Branch' roadbed (the Creamery branch had been abandoned here in the 1990s).
2, the old railroad track of the Creamery branch used to connect with the main Phoenix Line mainline at an area called Normal Jct. (MP 916). This particular line was abandoned in the 50s, track was pulled up and the ROW was paved and became what is now known as Terrace Rd. in Tempe. A good portion of the new light rail line runs smack down the center of Terrace Rd. before it takes an eastern turn over Apache and then into Mesa (Apache turns into Main St.). What's interesting about this is that although many in the area of ASU might complain about the tracks running along Terrace (which runs NW-SE diagonal), is that Terrace used to be purely a railroad ROW.
Once the trackage exits Terrace Rd. and continues east along Apache/Main, it does parallel the UP ROW, however 1/4 mile to the north and a complete lack of view.
Gavriel609 wrote: Why doesn't someone actually build rail TO Phoenix, so that Phoenix will become a more international city? No city fairs well on the international scope without a full blown transportation system (boats excluded).Although I think the Light Rail will help the area A LOT.
Are you talking commuter rail, or rail in general?
Both UP and BNSF have a presence in the Phoenix area.
Just a note on this now one plus year old thread.
The Valley Metro 'Metro Light Rail" will begin passenger operations on the 27th of this month. They will be offering free rides to anyone who wants one from the 27th through the 31st.
If it is well designed and placed, I bet it will be a hit. Charlotte's Lynx has been running for almost exactly a year and is running 50% over the rider numbers that were predicted by the "expert consultants".
Another item of interest. They have started construction on the People Mover at the Light Rail Station at 44th and Washington. The People Mover will serve Sky Harbor Airport and its` terminals.
I still maintain that the LRT does not reach where most people reside in the valley. We will have to see how heavily it is utilized. Last week it had its` first accident. An elderly woman made a left turn in front of a train and got crunched. The yard on weekday nights is very active. I see it each night on my way to the airport.
Salaam,
You have some interesting photos amid a sea of duplication that makes viewing more tedious than enjoyable and informing.
I didn't know any Key System cars had been preserved.
You also have an excellent array of North Coast and LA light rail photos.
Thanks,
Harvey
The Phoenix Metro light rail system officially makes its debut this coming Saturday, 12-27-2008. Free rides through New Year's Eve.
Going to post some pictures?
HarveyK400 Salaam, You have some interesting photos amid a sea of duplication that makes viewing more tedious than enjoyable and informing. I didn't know any Key System cars had been preserved. You also have an excellent array of North Coast and LA light rail photos. Thanks, Harvey
I'm not real familiar with what they've done in Phoenix. However, I've seen it from airplanes (I frequently fly through Phoenix), and it looks to me from the air that it is mostly in medians of surface streets. Now, admittedly, I could be mistaken about this, since an airplane widow isn't the best vantage point. But, if I'm correct, I have to wonder whether such a system would have much of a benefit (if any) over reserved bus lanes with traffic preemption. This is a major reason why the Houston line is such a dud - it's almost entirely built on surface street alignments so the trains can never really stretch their wings and fly. Any slight travel time advantage rail might have over bus lanes in this situation will be negated by the transfer time between the bus and rail.
The really good light rail systems, while they may have some portion of their distance in street alignments, are mostly on private rights-of-way (for example, San Diego, Los Angeles, Dallas) or enter central business districts in subways (Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston), so they can offer a significant speed advantage, particularly in rush hours. For example, I've ridden h the San Diego light rail system extensively, and I strongly suspect that the San Diego lines has faster average speeds terminal to terminal than many of the Chicago rapid transit lines
By the way, one thing to watch with the Phoenix system is whether they make bold claims of "success" based solely on rail ridership numbers. These can be very misleading. One of the things a transit authority will often do when it opens a rail line is to make changes in the bus system. One of those changes is often to break up parallel through bus services, and route the lines into the rail stations. That may make sense from an operational standpoint (why, after all, continue to operate parallel services when you've just invested a zillion dollars in a light rail line). But what that means is that many of the rail passengers may not be new to the transit system, but simply bus passengers now making a forced transfer. Further, if the light rail line isn't much faster than busses (Houston), the time required for the transfer might actually lengthen many of these passengers' travel times rather than reduce them. Whenever I've seen claims of how "successful" a particular light rail operation is based on rail ridership figures, I've wondered how the ridership of the transit system as a whole was affected. I suspect that, in some cases, it actually went down. But they never show changes in total transit ridership in their light rail press releases. I suppose it can be determined from other sources, but I've never dug into it.
I don't know about Phoenix, but Charlotte certainly does report the changes to the entire system, not just the light rail. Ours has been up and running a little over a year. In this October report, LYNX is the light rail, and Gold Rush is the trolley bus system that runs around in city center. November 2007 is the first month that LYNX was in revenue service. Notice that bus service is up 13% but total ridership is up 39%. Obviously the people riding LYNX did not come from the bus riders.
Phoebe Vet I don't know about Phoenix, but Charlotte certainly does report the changes to the entire system, not just the light rail. Ours has been up and running a little over a year. In this October report, LYNX is the light rail, and Gold Rush is the trolley bus system that runs around in city center. November 2007 is the first month that LYNX was in revenue service. Notice that bus service is up 13% but total ridership is up 39%. Obviously the people riding LYNX did not come from the bus riders. Ridership ReportDespite a fare increase going into effect and declining gas prices, ridership for the month of October increased 39.0% across all services, as compared to October 2007. Regular bus services grew 13.0%, averaging over 64,000 weekday trips. Regional Express services, Community Circulators and Vanpool also experienced double-digit increases for the month. Human Services Transportation ridership increased 7.7%, for its second consecutive monthly increase since changes were made to State Medicaid regulations. LYNX ridership set a new ridership record with over 475,000 trips for the month. The only service with a ridership decrease for the month was the Gold Rush, alluding to a slight shift in ridership from the Gold Rush to the LYNX Blue Line.
It's true that the gasoline prices drove many people to the bus and light rail, but there was an interesting side effect. People discovered that a monthly unlimited pass, which is good on both buses and the light rail costs less that it costs to rent a parking space in city center for a month, and even if you are standing, the trip on the light rail is more pleasant than driving in the stop and go morning and evening rush hour traffic. Result...many of them have stayed with LYNX even after the gasoline prices went down.
Now, you don't really think the gasoline prices are going to stay down long term, do you?
Just a few days ago, one of the big developers in town asked Huntersville for a zoning variance so he can build a transit oriented mixed use development along the LYNX Purple Line, which isn't even funded yet. The Feds have declined to participate in the Purple Line, but CATS is planning to build it anyway.
Phoebe Vet It's true that the gasoline prices drove many people to the bus and light rail, but there was an interesting side effect. People discovered that a monthly unlimited pass, which is good on both buses and the light rail costs less that it costs to rent a parking space in city center for a month, and even if you are standing, the trip on the light rail is more pleasant than driving in the stop and go morning and evening rush hour traffic. Result...many of them have stayed with LYNX even after the gasoline prices went down. Now, you don't really think the gasoline prices are going to stay down long term, do you? Just a few days ago, one of the big developers in town asked Huntersville for a zoning variance so he can build a transit oriented mixed use development along the LYNX Purple Line, which isn't even funded yet. The Feds have declined to participate in the Purple Line, but CATS is planning to build it anyway.
That said, I really know next to nothing about the Charlotte system, and my prior postings weren't meant to express any views on that system. I was commenting on the Phoenix system, and the possibility that, based solely on what I've seen from the air, it may have been built largely in medians of surface streets. If that's correct (and it may not be - I haven't seen it in operation), it is likely to be a relatively slow operation (like Houston) with no real advantage over dedicated bus lanes.
Falcon:
I did not take anything you said personally, or as a critique of the Charlotte system.
I tend to agree with you about systems that run in the street, and thus conflict with automobile traffic, but sometimes that comes from political pressure. Merchants know how popular the rail systems will be, and they fight tooth and nail against any plan that doesn't pass near their establishment.
Our Blue Line runs on NS right of way, but on it's own track. The Blue Line extension is going to run in a busy street for the reason I just stated. I don't know if it will work as well as the first phase, but time will tell. The Silver Line looks like it is going to be a busway, though the residents along it's planned route are still demanding it be light rail. If the residents prevail they will run the rails in the busway. The Purple Line is going to be commuter rail, with an engine pulling cars, also runing on NS Right of way and track.
You Phoenix fans how did the Light Rail handle the crowds for the NFC playoff?????
Unfortunately it will be hard to gauge that. The western terminus of the system is on 19th avenue and the UoP Stadium is on 99th avenue, 10 miles to the west.
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