Rode Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus today in Canton Ohio

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Rode Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bus today in Canton Ohio
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Tuesday, June 05, 2018 6:30 PM

Who knew that little Canton Ohio could be so cutting edge? Anyway the pick up was little slow and the bus whined a bit from the electric moters but other then that ran like a normal bus-

https://www.sartaonline.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell

The Stark Area Regional Transit Authority will get another $1.75 million in federal grant funding to buy zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell buses, according to the office of U.S. Sen. S?herrod Brown.

CANTON The Stark Area Regional Transit Authority has gotten a $1.75 million federal grant to buy two more zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell buses.

Kirt Conrad, SARTA’s executive director, said his agency submitted an application in May for a grant from the Federal Transit Administration’s Low Or No Emission Vehicle Program, which disburses up to $55 million a year to local governments to buy or lease zero-emission and low-emission transit buses.

Conrad, who heard from Sen. Sherrod Brown’s office Tuesday that SARTA had gotten the grant, thanked Brown, D-Cleveland, U.S. Sen. Rob Portman, R-Cincinnati and Stark County’s congressmen for submitting letters of support to the federal agency.

SARTA has used other grants in recent years to acquired seven hydrogen-fuel cell buses, which do not emit pollutants into the air, said Conrad.

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, June 06, 2018 9:04 AM

London has some hydrogen buses, all single-deckers. 

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Wednesday, June 06, 2018 12:13 PM

So when do we get Hydro streetcars?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:52 AM

CandOforprogress2

So when do we get Hydro streetcars?

 
Question
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by erikem on Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:16 PM

Would be kind of fun to see DMU's, such as the NCTD Sprinters, replaced by fuel cell powered EMU's. Would almost certainly have to be some sort of hybrid power source, i.e. fuel cells for steady state power and batteries or ultra-caps for acceleration (suspect NCTD Sprinters would use LiPO batteries due to the hills). Nice thing with hybrids is that regeration would take care of most of the braking saving wear and tear on the friction brakes.

I got a ride in a Toyota fuel cell mini-van about four years ago. Experience was about the same as being in an electric car.

Best way to generate hydrogen would be using surplus solar power in late morning/early afternoon and surplus wind power when available.

 - Erik

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, June 11, 2018 10:36 AM

I believe I read in Trams and Urbn Transit, the publication of the UK Light Railway T. A., a report of a Japanese or Chinese fuel-cell streetcar, possibly a whole line.

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Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 10:34 AM

Have you ever seen a hydrogen fire?

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 11:24 AM

In Europe Alstom is already offering the Coradia iLint:  http://www.alstom.com/Global/OneAlstomPlus/Railsystems/Pressreleases/2017/20170314---_iLint---800x320.jpg

It is equipped with two 200 kW fuel-cell and 110kW-hr lithium-ion batteries for 19500 lbs starting tractive effort and a total power of 544 kW. The reach is about 500 miles with 200 lbs H2 at 350 bar. The iLINT costs about 75% more than a diesel-electric LINT.

Siemens is developing a H2 fuel-cell propulsion system for its Mireo platform together with Ballard Power Systems (Canada). Market introduction hoped for in 2021.

erikem
Best way to generate hydrogen would be using surplus solar power in late morning/early afternoon and surplus wind power when available.

I think that is the only way if you propose a clean exhaust. Otherwise the fuel-cells still produce just water but the harmfull exhaust is transfered to the power plant.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 12:17 PM

We've all seen a hydrogen fire. Oh the humanity! 

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:11 PM

A hydrogen fire is not easily seen in daylight: https://www.h2tools.org/sites/default/files/bp-images/flames%20comparison.jpg

Better at night: https://www.h2tools.org/sites/default/files/bp-images/flames%20comparison%20night.jpg

You possibly think of the Hindenburg desaster: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/e/e4/1937-05-10_Special_Release_-_Zeppelin_Explodes_Scores_Dead.ogv/1937-05-10_Special_Release_-_Zeppelin_Explodes_Scores_Dead.ogv.480p.webm

But that is different than a Hydrogen pressure tank with a small leak. At Lakehurst around 7 million cubic feet of Hydrogen burnt at the same time.

Pressure storage at 350 bar is used for Hydrogen since a long time and I haven't read of problems. Cars with this kind of storage are allowed in underground car parks in Germany though LNG cars are not allowed.

BNSF is testing a switcher, BNSF 1205, with a hydrogen fuel cell.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:45 PM

I was thinking of the hydrogen fire I saw as a power plant operator years ago. It was big, brief and bright and convinced me that hydrogen is not something you want traversing the highways or railways with any regularity.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:51 PM

D.Carleton

I was thinking of the hydrogen fire I saw as a power plant operator years ago. It was big, brief and bright and convinced me that hydrogen is not something you want traversing the highways or railways with any regularity.

 
The same could be said of natural gas, propane or any number of other flammable gases.
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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 1:58 PM

Not knowing the circumstances I can't tell.

I know there are differences between pressure storage (350 bar) and liquified storage at -423°F and ambient pressure. The latter are not allowed in underground car parks.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 2:59 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
D.Carleton

I was thinking of the hydrogen fire I saw as a power plant operator years ago. It was big, brief and bright and convinced me that hydrogen is not something you want traversing the highways or railways with any regularity.

The same could be said of natural gas, propane or any number of other flammable gases.

The fire I saw was a fireball the size of a backyard swimming pool and was fed by an amount of liquid hydrogen between one teaspoon and one tablespoon. Hydrogen is far more potent than any other fuel in use today and best kept away from the general public.

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Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:10 PM

Is not Hydrgen stored in a tank with a metal hydride solution?

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:12 PM

D.Carleton
CSSHEGEWISCH
D.Carleton

I was thinking of the hydrogen fire I saw as a power plant operator years ago. It was big, brief and bright and convinced me that hydrogen is not something you want traversing the highways or railways with any regularity.

The same could be said of natural gas, propane or any number of other flammable gases.

The fire I saw was a fireball the size of a backyard swimming pool and was fed by an amount of liquid hydrogen between one teaspoon and one tablespoon. Hydrogen is far more potent than any other fuel in use today and best kept away from the general public.

I bet similar things were said about gasoline in the past.  Now it's ubiquitous.

The key point about your hydrogen fire is that it was brief, and stayed in the immediate spot it originated at.  Flaming gasoline or other liquids can flow around and spread the fire while they burn for a longer time.  

I was once told by a Chemistry Professor that the most dangerous substance in her laboratory was liquid oxygen.  And yet we allow smokers to carry tanks of it around our cities.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:24 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

I know there are differences between pressure storage (350 bar) and liquified storage at -423°F and ambient pressure. The latter are not allowed in underground car parks.
Regards, Volker

Neither are propane vehicles, can't remember about natural gas though.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:25 PM

SD70Dude
D.Carleton
CSSHEGEWISCH
D.Carleton

I was thinking of the hydrogen fire I saw as a power plant operator years ago. It was big, brief and bright and convinced me that hydrogen is not something you want traversing the highways or railways with any regularity.

The same could be said of natural gas, propane or any number of other flammable gases.

The fire I saw was a fireball the size of a backyard swimming pool and was fed by an amount of liquid hydrogen between one teaspoon and one tablespoon. Hydrogen is far more potent than any other fuel in use today and best kept away from the general public.

I bet similar things were said about gasoline in the past.  Now it's ubiquitous.

The key point about your hydrogen fire is that it was brief, and stayed in the immediate spot it originated at.  Flaming gasoline or other liquids can flow around and spread the fire while they burn for a longer time.  

I was once told by a Chemistry Professor that the most dangerous substance in her laboratory was liquid oxygen.  And yet we allow smokers to carry tanks of it around our cities.

When I was going through fire college I asked how we fight a hydrogen fire. Simple, you don't. It will be over before the alarm has a chance to ring. All that will be left to do is salvage and overhaul. When the hydrogen fuel tank on one of these vehicles goes critical it will affect whatever is in the immediate area and that area can be quite large depending on the volume of gas carried. Gasoline to hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to dynamite. 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 3:34 PM

D.Carleton

Gasoline to hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to dynamite. 

Sooo...  safer?

Might want to rethink that comparison, I know which one I'd prefer to work with!

Just don't let it freeze...

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by D.Carleton on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 4:03 PM

SD70Dude
 
D.Carleton

Gasoline to hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to dynamite. 

Sooo...  safer?

Might want to rethink that comparison, I know which one I'd prefer to work with!

Just don't let it freeze...

Oh, okay. Gasoline to Hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to nitroglycerin. Needed is an Alfred Nobel to make it safer. Then he can start an awards program acknowledging the works of those advancing humanity.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 4:17 PM

D.Carleton
SD70Dude
D.Carleton

Gasoline to hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to dynamite. 

Sooo...  safer?

Might want to rethink that comparison, I know which one I'd prefer to work with!

Just don't let it freeze...

Oh, okay. Gasoline to Hydrogen is akin to going from black powder to nitroglycerin. Needed is an Alfred Nobel to make it safer. Then he can start an awards program acknowledging the works of those advancing humanity.

If only it were so easy as mixing the liquid hydrogen with diatomaceous earth and wrapping it in wax paper...

No matter, I nominate you for a Safe Hydrogen Prize, if one ever exists!

But I am still not convinced that hydrogen is significantly more dangerous than a tank of compressed/liquefied propane or natural gas, both of which have been used in motor vehicles for quite some time.

Has there ever been a hydrogen tank car BLEVE incident?  Would make for a interesting comparison to propane, especially of hydrogen starts to be shipped by rail in large quantities.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:19 PM

I looked into a paper regarding handling of hydrogen issued by the governing body of German fire department.

They advice to let pressure tanks with burning leakage burn out, while cooling with water. They say there is no danger, that the pressure tank might crackle. If the pressure tank gets extremely hot the danger of an implosion exists when the flame flashes back into the tank with decreasing gas pressure

They also say that one might need a infrared camera to determine if the leakage really burns.

We have Hydrogn combustion engines in cars and trucks since the mid 1990s and I'm not aware of burning or exploding hydrogen tanks.
Regards, Volker

Edit: BLEVEs (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) can occur when a tank containing boiling liquified gas ruptures. In cars and the current Hydrogen use in trains the gas is carried in pressure tanks at about 350 bar, not in liquified form.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:37 PM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

I looked into a paper regarding handling of hydrogen issued by the governing body of German fire department.

They advice to let pressure tanks with burning leakage burn out, while cooling with water. They say there is no danger, that the pressure tank might crackle. If the pressure tank gets extremely hot the danger of an implosion exists when the flame flashes back into the tank with decreasing gas pressure

That is exactly how firefighters around here treat tank car fires at derailment sites, the most common contents are propane/LPG, gasoline, diesel and crude oil.

VOLKER LANDWEHR

They also say that one might need a infrared camera to determine if the leakage really burns.

Like you said earlier a pure hydrogen flame is difficult to see in daylight.

The visible flames in the Hindenburg disaster were from the burning fabric skin and aluminium frame, which also helped to spread the fire.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Thursday, June 14, 2018 4:59 AM

SD70Dude
Has there ever been a hydrogen tank car BLEVE incident? Would make for a interesting comparison to propane, especially of hydrogen starts to be shipped by rail in large quantities.

Here is a BLEVE of a liquid hydrogen tank described: https://www.h2tools.org/lessons/liquid-hydrogen-tank-boiling-liquid-expanding-vapor-explosion-bleve-due-water-plugged-vent

Regards, Volker

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, June 15, 2018 11:31 PM

Is the energy recovery of a final hydrogen user still less than other sources?.  That is the energy needed to produce the hydrogen and the energy recovery of the end hydrogen  user ?

In case of an accident isn't the energy density of either liquid or gaseous hydrogen more than natural gas , propane,etc ?  Hydrogen doesn't have to dispose of those left over carbon atoms of natural gas and propane for example.

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Posted by phkmn2000 on Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:28 PM

Zero emission????

One of the primary processes for making hydrogen is to start with fossil fuel. A primary by-product is, guess what? Carbon Dioxide.

I laugh when I see "zero emission" electric buses in Chicago. Illinois electricity source is about 45% coal and 45% nuclear.

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Wednesday, July 11, 2018 5:11 AM

Locally they are zero emission. The emissions are produced somewhere else so that the air quality in the city gets better.

You can make fuel cells real zero emission if you use water and renewable energies to produce hydrogen. A second way is producing Methanol from the atmosphere with renewable energy and using it in a fuel cell. The fuel cell releases CO2 but not more the used to produce Methanol: https://serenergy.com/the-first-methanol-fuel-cell-powered-vessel-in-germany-is-now-sailing-the-waters-of-lake-baldeneysee/

Producing Hydrogen from hydrocarbons will release CO2.

There are ways to make fuel cells zero emission. Hydrogen production could be used to buffer renewable energy in times of low demand.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by alphas on Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:35 AM

Our transit authority buses are all powered by CHG and in the approximate 20 years since it took over I believe there's only been one fire, with no injuries and moderate damage to the bus.    That's a much better record than the previously used diesels.     (Note: I was a member of the regional fire department for 25 years.)

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Posted by tdmidget on Saturday, July 14, 2018 11:17 AM

Alphas, without a location your post is meaningless. Where are these buses?

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Posted by alphas on Tuesday, July 17, 2018 11:38 AM

Central PA, specifically Centre County.    Its actually a large operation since its focal point is the main PSU campus.    The University only provides housing for about 25 % of its students so it requires a lot of bus service to non-university student housing areas which can be as much as 3-4 miles away.   Plus serving the rest of the immediate community as well as certain routes in surrounding townships.  

tdmidget

Alphas, without a location your post is meaningless. Where are these buses?

 

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