I honestly believe that it is possible to discuss all manner of problems or all manner of types, without being at all specific about the racial, religoius, ethnic, or national background of any of the protagonists of these problems. I have close friends and relatives who were affected far more seriously and permanently than some of the 'victims' who have complained about customer or fellow-rider behavior on this Forum. Of course the U-boat Athena tragedy deeply affected me. One simply discusses the behaviour without going into detail about the perpetrator's geneology. It is important that people of all backgrounds, genetically, feel welcome on this forum and not feel that they are 'second-class citizens.'
This is simiple politeness on this forum and should be adopted as a code by everyone --- and then there is far less likelyhood of threads being locked.
When I first began studying at my Yeshiva some twelve years ago, there was posted by the workplace of one student who's family had suffered a serious loss:
'No ----, no terror,'
(I replaced the ethnic designation with blanks to follow the code I am suggesting.)
I then printed out and pasted immediately below:
'and no Kosher food or other services in our many hotels on the Sabbath and holidays.'
Both signs were removed and I have not seen a reoccurance.'
I ask this with a 'please, bivakasha, min-fadluck.'
Most transit systems and expecialy rail systems are hub and spoke systems. The rust belt citys of Detroit,Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cincy, Indy, Columbus, Loisville, Gary IN, Milliwalke still have inner city poverty belts where not much progress has been made in intrigration and the war on poverty has been hopelessly lost. Unfortulnatly its like we are living on seperate planets. One reason is the the GI bill in the 1950s-1960s that returning Vets who were white got home loans to move to new affordible housing like Levitown while blacks were locked out off the lending market- What was left was the houses that were in the inner city and since there was widespread lending discrmination the only way to get a roof was to rent. The memories and the effect of this discrmination are alive and well as well as the memories of the riots that happened in the 1960s. Using public transit as a white person almost always means passing thru that inner city African American ethnic belt and those people have a justified long standing grudge. (I have been treated the same way in Southie as well). For me who has benifited by having quility schools and clean streets and having the opputunites that only come from living in a high end suburb for me to tell someone to not be angry and pull themselves up by there bootstraps is out of line. For me to tell someone how to act when it is actualy me who has benifited by the systematic oppresion is too much. I am in "their" world (The Belt) at least for the next 30-40 minutes on the bus or train and I have no buisness telling them how to act no more then they have buisness telling me how to act in my own backyard.
My hope is that Good Public transit will bring people together of all races and social econmic backgrounds but we must come to terms with the Balkanization of America. I vistied the Bronx in July and I loved the food and the culture there. Anthony Bordeen just did a show on the Bronx and Detroit and is doing wonders to break down boundries.
Trail,
I understand that what you are saying is that if some white person is stupid enough to ride through the "black belt" they should keep their mouth shut and hope they are not attacked by black racists. Sounds like a good aregument for avoiding public transit to me.
Mac
Troll alert. This Railtrail (current alias) obviously has issues and is a disruptor. The moderator just locked Railtrail's more overtly racist thread.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I am NOT afraid to ride mass transit or commuter rail in other cities than the one I live in. I am also NOT afraid to sit next to someone that doesn't look like me.
Part of my railfan hobby is riding commuter rail and rail mass transit. I made a trip to Seattle a few years ago where I used mass transit 100% of the time on that visit. I really enjoyed riding Seattle's trolley buses. I also went to Portland by Amtrak and loved riding light rail there too. Riding light rail in Portland and several other places is a wonderful way to spend the day. I have ridden the subway in New York City, Washington DC, the CTA and Metra in Chicago, and light rail and Go Transit in Toronto.
I've often suspected that one of the reasons for the Watts riots in 1965 was the fact that the Pacific Electric was shut down a few years earlier. People get angry when they can't get to work.
thanks for the last post, a good lesson.
The movie "Devil in a Blue Dress" gives an idea of what is to come to Watts. People in one scene are discussing an article in a newspaper about a new freeway that will either bypass or destroy thier neighbourhood, I forget which. At the end, Denzel Washington's character is looking down the street at people leading ordinary middle class lives, children playing ball, little girls selling lemonade. You know that it's all going to go away.
The Detroit riots were, I believe a result of the collapse of the auto industry. When the cotton fields became mechanised, work could be found up North building Packards, Hudsons, Studebakers and Kaisers. They stopped making those cars.
"The Great Migration" was when populations of blacks moved up from the south during World War II to fill in the factory jobs created during such era. Many former black slaves never realy left the plantation after 1865 but continued in the employ of there former masters as sharecroppers. WW2 created a out. The racial tension occured when returning vets reclaimed there jobs at the mills and blacks were regulated to service jobs. Whites ethnics were able to get new housing that was being built in the suburbs. For more on lending discrmination see-http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Racial+disparities+in+mortgage+lending%3a+the+example+of+urban+Ohio.-a053519909
What I am saying is the fear goes both ways- The white suberban commuter has to overcome his personal boundries that he does not have to worry about in his or her personal car in freeways that are elevated above urban blight or go under them in deep cuts that he/she does not have actual contact and see face to face the results of his sins both intentional and unintentional. He does not see the housing projects the boarded up housing the drug addled prosetites wandering the streets in search of there next John and thus there next fix and the kids hustling on the street corner with no parents in sight.===Like wise the black view of a white man in there hood is the only reason they come here after hours is to get drugs or sex (As I was explaioned to by a African Methodist Episcopal Reverand ). Not the fact that I am working odd hours and the only ride home is the late night owl bus. Boundries need to be broken and maybe the broken nose will be worth it in the end. What has helped is that a number of transit systems have given free passes under contract to university students which has made things safer by increasing the diversity.
For more info about the urban blight caused by those very expressways, read Robert Caro's book, "The Power Broker," a biography of Robert Moses. It will explain a lot.
I'm not sure it was Caro, but decades ago I saw someone on a PBS show talk about Moses. One example he gave was that there were 2 choices for a Bronx expressway, one that would condemn more houses than the other, which would require condemmning a garage that the "very politically powerful" bus company owned. The implication, I felt, was that Moses decided on the alternative that would have destroyed more houses instead of disrupting the bus company's depot. The speaker never mentioned where would the bus company have relocated its depot, whether that would have taken housing condemnation, and what would have happened to bus service if they did need to relocate. I got the impression he felt that only the bus company would have felt pain if they relocated.
aricat I am NOT afraid to ride mass transit or commuter rail in other cities than the one I live in. I am also NOT afraid to sit next to someone that doesn't look like me.
I'd be very perturbed if I had to sit next to a person who looked like me.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
That is a topic covered in Caro's book. The last thing that Moses cared about were "the people;" they had no significance for him unless they were wealthy. Building the expressways and parks and such were all about him, nothing else. His name on the causeway, his name on the park. New York will pay for it forever.
schlimm Troll alert. This Railtrail (current alias) obviously has issues and is a disruptor. The moderator just locked Railtrail's more overtly racist thread.
Plus, very little of what he says is true. I have walked the streets of South Chicago as well as ridden transit through the place. Nbbody threatened me in any way. Peoples attitudes shaped largely by media reports watched in their comfy living rooms are not reality based. We are put on this Earth to decide for ourselves using factual and if possible first hand information. We should operate a little better than a Chicken Coup of clucking chickens in these matters, IMHO.
Ladies and Gentlemen:
This thread is off-topic and is being locked.
Please see me with any questions.
Best,
Steve S.
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
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