http://wabe.org/post/atlanta-streetcar-delayed-again-due-construction-issues
Ugh. Don't completely understand why several months of running w/o passengers is needed to fulfil Fed testing requirements. Would think a week or two would be enough to test line and qualify employees.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
CADDguyI worked on the MARTA project for 35 years. We scheduled 3-6 months testing for all systems prior to revenue service. This may be a less complex system, but testing is no place to cut corners.
What are you measuring during six months of testing?
I'm assuming there is a defined test plan with criteria for success/failure.
MARTA seems far more complex than this.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
This is a loop of track with a few vehicles. None of the design is original stuff. I would think you'd just have to be sure all the sub-systems - which should have already been tested separately, play nicely together.
It's disappointing to me that it appears that there is no urgency to getting revenue service going. The public's money has been spent and we have to wait a good bit before we get any good out of it.
It seems to me that all the pre-revenue testing, training, etc could be accomplished much faster if they attempted to do things in parallel and utilzed all 168 hours a week to get the work done.
If the project isn't important enough to get going as soon as possible, why even bother with it at all?
The length of time it takes to get these kinds of projects done just bugs me. (if you couldn't have guessed!)
oltmannd It's disappointing to me that it appears that there is no urgency to getting revenue service going. The public's money has been spent and we have to wait a good bit before we get any good out of it. It seems to me that all the pre-revenue testing, training, etc could be accomplished much faster if they attempted to do things in parallel and utilzed all 168 hours a week to get the work done. If the project isn't important enough to get going as soon as possible, why even bother with it at all? The length of time it takes to get these kinds of projects done just bugs me. (if you couldn't have guessed!)
oltmannd http://wabe.org/post/atlanta-streetcar-delayed-again-due-construction-issues Ugh. Don't completely understand why several months of running w/o passengers is needed to fulfil Fed testing requirements. Would think a week or two would be enough to test line and qualify employees.
Because the government is involved, that's why.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Test streetcars are running at various times during the day. Drivers are being trained as final kinks are being worked out of the system.
Tell me if I'm wrong. Required testing of a new system's cars is what ? 1000 miles ? Can that be included in each vehicles required 100 miles of testing ?
If so that would mean ~ 900 loops on the 1.1 mile Atlanta system ? 90 days means 10 loops of cars daily to certify ?
As pointed out in the TCRP document cited over in the Dallas track maintenance thread, there are no Federal testing requirements for transit systems only state, so you're blaming the wrong guys for the requirements.
What happens on those systems that are both light rail & freight lines ?. Thinking of both Baltimore and San Diego. Both have sections that are light rail only and other sections that also has freight rail spurs or trains traverse .
blue streak 1 What happens on those systems that are both light rail & freight lines ?. Thinking of both Baltimore and San Diego. Both have sections that are light rail only and other sections that also has freight rail spurs or trains traverse .
Those systems operate according to FRA's principle of temporal seperation, where by freight service (governed by FRA rules) operates in one period of time, and non FRA compliant equipment in another period of time. Never the two shall mix. Obviously since the freight operation is under FRA governance the track over which they operate must conform to the FRA track safety standards, that which is transit only does not. FRA exercises no jurisdiction over the transit operations under this concept.
FRA does require a fair amount of paperwork and planning to permit this type of operation. Our friends in Austin made the mistake of marching off to plan a system of this type without involving FRA from day 1. Kind of POed FRA and resulted in some delay in getting the project approved.
One dirty little secrete is that the AAR requires more testing of a new design coal car than FTA does for a new design transit car. One can point to the MBTA Type 8 problems as an argument for more testing.
Delayed some more...for some unspecified safety concerns.
http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/atlanta-streetcar-delayed-over-safety-concerns/njBpp/
Looks like Dec 6th start?
oltmannd Delayed some more...for some unspecified safety concerns. http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/atlanta-streetcar-delayed-over-safety-concerns/njBpp/ Looks like Dec 6th start?
Interesting my friends at APTA say the Feds have no role in this. Could it be the highway guys for the lane marking?
The mayor of Atlanta says the work is done. They are just waiting for the FTA to sign off. Hard to tell what's really real, here.
Given where some of the managers/supervisors came from, that's not surprising.
Lots of info here: http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wabe/files/Atlanta_Streetcar_Project_Follow_up_Mayor_Kasim_Reed_11_17_14.pdf
Sounds like GDOT is dragging it's feet?
Not much info in FTA reply. http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wabe/files/FTA_Letter_to_Atlanta_Mayor_Reed_111914.pdf
awalker1829 Given where some of the managers/supervisors came from, that's not surprising.
Where?
This dosen't help ...
"The Atlanta Streetcar was involved in a crash with a car on Sunday, marking the second accident for the system during its testing phase.'
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/morning_call/2014/11/atlanta-streetcar-involved-in-second-accident.html
I am a believer in the advantages of rail however it is a giant mistake to mix it with rubber tired traffic in the road. Everywhere that rail and roads come together, even just grade level crossings, tragedy follows. In Houston, even city buses have collided with the light rail.
rdamon This dosen't help ... Atlanta Streetcar involved in second accident "The Atlanta Streetcar was involved in a crash with a car on Sunday, marking the second accident for the system during its testing phase.' http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/morning_call/2014/11/atlanta-streetcar-involved-in-second-accident.html
Note that in both cases, the driver hit the streetcar.
All this chat about the Atlanta Streetcar Project finally caught my attention. So I had a look at the project webpage.
The latest estimated capital cost for this 2.7 mile project is just north of $98.9 million, which is a $6.2 million boost from the original projection. The project is being funded with federal and city or city associated monies. The project sponsors are finalizing an operating budget.
If construction monies were borrowed at the U.S. Treasury long bond rate, the cost of the project, including debt service, which would be capitalized, would be approximately $147.9 million or $54.8 million per mile.
The project sponsors claim the streetcar will improve better transit connectivity, accelerate economic development, improve the environment and enhance the infrastructure. Unfortunately, quantification of the benefits is vague. The sponsors cite the economic benefits streetcars supposedly generated for Seattle and Portland, as well as some high level but non-quantified benefits that supposedly will pop up by 2030 along the streetcar route.
Proponents of these projects, including the Dallas Union Station to Oak Cliff Streetcar, claim that similar projects have generated significant development along the routes. What they don't say is that in high growth cities like Portland, Seattle, Atlanta, Dallas, etc., the developments would have occurred anyway, although it may have been in different areas of the city.
Sam1 All this chat about the Atlanta Streetcar Project finally caught my attention. So I had a look at the project webpage. The latest estimated capital cost for this 2.7 mile project is just north of $98.9 million, which is a $6.2 million boost from the original projection. The project is being funded with federal and city or city associated monies. The project sponsors are finalizing an operating budget. If construction monies were borrowed at the U.S. Treasury long bond rate, the cost of the project, including debt service, which would be capitalized, would be approximately $147.9 million or $54.8 million per mile. The project sponsors claim the streetcar will improve better transit connectivity, accelerate economic development, improve the environment and enhance the infrastructure. Unfortunately, quantification of the benefits is vague. The sponsors cite the economic benefits streetcars supposedly generated for Seattle and Portland, as well as some high level but non-quantified benefits that supposedly will pop up by 2030 along the streetcar route. Proponents of these projects, including the Dallas Union Station to Oak Cliff Streetcar, claim that similar projects have generated significant development along the routes. What they don't say is that in high growth cities like Portland, Seattle, Atlanta, Dallas, etc., the developments would have occurred anyway, although it may have been in different areas of the city.
This is strictly an economic development, social justice play. It is, perhaps, a placeholder for further expansion geared toward mobility. It could never pass muster as a mobility project. The Fed money was not out of the DOT side of the house. They didn't even try to jump over the hurdles to qualify for that - it was stimulus money.
Among other things, the line is supposed to put back togther the Auburn business district that the construction of I-75/85 tore apart in the bad old days.
It basically connects the "tourist/convention" part of the city to the MLK site. It will be useful for tourists in this regard. The big failure is that it stops on the wrong side of Centential Olympic Park. Had it made a loop around the park, it would served Coke World, CFHoF, the Aquarium and CNN directly - and come much closer to the convention center.
And, now the startup is delayed, again. The line is ready to go, but GA DOT and Fed DOT have not completed all their paperwork.
rdamon This is the same city that thought it was a good idea to expand the airport by building a new terminal on the other side of the airport and then operate a fleet of mini buses to connect arriving passengers to existing ground transportation.
At least you get to keep the bottles you bought at the duty free shop now. You used to have to go through US security again - even after flying over 1500 miles of US territory - just to get to baggage claim.
You can still get to ground transportation from the international terminal via the airport train, you just have to go through security...
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