Rather than repair and expand the now decrepit Port Authority 8th Avenue and 41st St. Bus Terminal and the one in Washington Heights, both should be moved to New Jersey. Not the "7",, but the "L", the 14th Street Canarsie Line, should be extended to Sacaucus Station on the NEC with a stop at a new large efficient bus terminal to replace the one on 8th Avenue. The "A" should cross the GW Bridge to a new terminal replacing the one in Washington Heights, with the C taking over the 207th Street service.
\The followingg email message prompts this recommendation:
Why not keep it in the family? If the Port Authority were to build a new bus terminal anywhere they should extend the PATH train to it. In NJ it could be an extension from 33rd St then loop down the Meadows to Journal Sq. area and/or maybe use one of the abandoned rights of way into Newark and the Oranges. PATH already has cross Hudson privileges and charters and rights, etc. so there would be no state infringements, et. al, as would accompany New York State's MTA invading NJ. Utilizing PATH"s existence could probably cut 10 years and 100's of billions of dollars from the project while opening up NYC to more people.
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If that is easier to do, by all means. But consider this:
The "L" is almost a mile closer to the Hudson River, is pointed in the right direction, involving less demolition of buidings (perhaps none, just tearing up 14th Street from between 8th and 9th Aves to 12th), is already constructed under all the north-south subways it crosses, and uses full-width cars and thus can have more people seated and a far greater capacity per train than a PATH train (almost double), and has the capacity to easily handle the extra patronage. I would expect the number of passengers coming from NJ to outnumber those from Brooklyn, with a 2-minute headway during rush hours, and every other train using the pocket track east of Myrtle Avenue to reverse there, or perhaps one out of three, another one out of three short turning at Atlantic Avenue. with Janius, E55th, and Canarsie-Rockaway Ave getting 6 minute service.
I am unsure at this point, memory-wise, whether the "L" ever had platforms extended from 500 to 620 feet for 10-car trains, instead of eight (seven of the original BMT "steels" or two Multi's or D-types.). If not done already, might be done at the same time.
The big problem with building PATH west (or east, to GCT, as originally envisioned) is going underneath existing subways. And the curve at Herald Square would be mighty difficult because oof existing subways, station facilities, and buildings.
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Doesn't have to come from Herald Sq. Can cut off the line anyplace. My concern and proposition is multi fold. First and foremost the legal hassles of the State of NY entities entering upon the State of NJ. Since the Port Authority already has that right, is the owner and operator of PATH, it is a natural that PATH would be most logical and easiest entity to cross the Hudson to access either a new bus terminal or to existing venues like Secaucus Jct. Second, therefore, would be the ability to use abandoned rights of way and vacant lands, to complete a circle at or near Journal Sq. or to reach further into the near NJ suburbs. Use of PATH would reach more people who need to get to NYC and the east side than NY people who need to get to the west side. or NJ. The 7 or even the L train would not be available to as many people nor be able to expand into NJ. Unless NY annexes Hudson, Bergen, and Essex Counties of NJ. As a former NJite and now upstate NY'er...I'd be opposed to that!
GACK! NO!
The Bus Terminal MUST be in Manhattan. It should be moved to the space directly above the tunnel portals, further, during Rush Hour, ONLY busses should be permitted to use the tunnel.
You want to get the beese into the terminal without recourse to city streets. Moving sidewalks, city beese, trams, and taxis should be able to move peeps (geese) to their usual connections.
LION rides bust from Stroudsburg to PABT : It is a long enough commute without having to make an extra transfer point. Watch the tunnel from the Joisey side. That bus lane is filled from end to end with moving beese for hours. A constant stream of them
Should be able to do the wrok for FREE, since the air rights will provide all of the income stream needed to build and keep this operation going. And does not the new (7) Lion go right to this point anyway.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Ah, Port Authority! Many memories of that place in the 70s when I took the bus that left at 11:00 pm that went directly to the piers at the Norfolk navy base where I was stationed at the time. There sure wasn't anything nice about that place back then and I haven't been back since. I sure recall the garish pimpmobiles stationed outside "Why, you from Milwaukee, I'm from Milwaukee too, get your fine butt on in here!"
I do like the idea of having the terminal in New Jersey on an extended Number 7 line, that sounds like a pretty good idea, having it adjacent to the Turnpike. First extend the Number 7. Not that I'm ever going to ride a grey dog ever again.
daveklepperThe "L" is almost a mile closer to the Hudson River, is pointed in the right direction, involving less demolition of buidings (perhaps none, just tearing up 14th Street from between 8th and 9th Aves to 12th), is already constructed under all the north-south subways it crosses, and uses full-width cars and thus can have more people seated and a far greater capacity per train than a PATH train (almost double), and has the capacity to easily handle the extra patronage.
Not to mention full CTBC instantiation, and, I believe, automatic operation (one-person) since 2012...
... and a transfer connection to PATH at 6th Avenue...
The "L" connects with all existing north-south rapid transit lines, with stations at 8th, 6th, 4th (Union Sq.) 3rd, and 1st Avenues. And the Atlantic Avenue station is right over LIRR's East New York station.
Rail tunnels are less expensive to build than highway tunnels and can handle more passengers per lane, even with bus use.
Ok. The "L" with it. The "L" train should be transferred to the PA and somehow made an appendage of PATH. But NJ is where the users of the service are and not NYC or LI. The most expedient course will be through the PA and not the courts; talk about doing in in a few years rather than several decades.
I'm with Henry on this one. PATH is the established agency for this. Their name is Trans Hudson. However, like Lion says, there are a lot of bus commuters who will not want to give up their one-seat ride, and will probably make enough noise to kill any idea of moving the terminal.
Actually a move to NJ is intriguing but it does not take into account buses coming from points east of the Hudson or LI.. LIght rail feeder lines in NJ to NJT lines may work to counter the bus or it may enhance it. And, yes, I have to and have opened the idea that PATH must control the trans Hudson rapid transit but only if NJT cannot expand to do so. I just think that the PA and their PATH is in place and will avert a lot of arguing and court battles and shorten the talking time to implementation.
Rebuild/remodel/relocate the PA in Manhattan. That is the primary arrival and departure point, not NJ.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
My question is this: where are the busses coming from, and would a full scale PATH expansion across the area better serve the commuting needs as the area grows?
Metro North already works with NJT on two services, and there is no reason why the TA cannot also work with NJT or PATH. That would be necessary for the GWBridge project as well. (I assumed that it is well-known that two of the lanes were originally designed for rapid transit and have the structure in place.) The 14th St. tunneling and tracks and physical plant west of 8th Avenue could be NJT or PATH, new car equipment would be half NJT or PATH-owned and half TA-owned but be identacle. The equipment would be new, would revert to the original R-1 through R-10 IND seat arrangements, not the bowling alleys of the current new stuff. If giving up a one-seat ride means not having any more delays, and traveiling through only safe and well-kept facilities, I think manyy commuters will prefer the new arrangement.
If it were PATH and not NJT, this one successful service might lead to real consideration of intergration of PATH with the A division IRT with No.6 train running past City Hall to provide the World Trade Center service to New Jersey Of course, as I have pointed out on other theads. this will require widening of belt-rail level clearances on the affected IRT lines, but that is doable.
My guess....and guess only....is that the single majority of bus passengers at PAT are to and from west of Hudson commuters mostly from NJ but also from Orange and Rockland Counties of NY and from areas of Pennsylvania east of Scranton-Wilkes Barre. Next would be intercity and regional buses then Westchester and Putnam counties NY, LI, and western CT. So as for long distance/inter city buses, I would suggest they keep to the present PAT along with the east of Hudson commuters. Others west of the Hudson to a new terminal in the Meadows as close to NJT's Secaucus Jct. as possible with new rapid transit (PATH oriented) service. East of Hudson commuters maybe in need of a new bus terminal, too, perhaps in LIC with 7 train and ferry services to Manhattan or in the Bronx with express MTA subway connections from near Yankee Stadium. Another important project has to be a passenger rail or transit tunnel from Staten Island to reach MTA in Brooklyn or continuation to Manhattan (SIRR to lower Manhattan?).
daveklepperIf giving up a one-seat ride means not having any more delays, and traveiling through only safe and well-kept facilities, I think manyy commuters will prefer the new arrangement.
Surely there must be an easier way than moving to NJ.
Imagine the Jersey bus terminal really laid out for the passengers' benefit. An arrivals concourse and a departure concours, both lined on one side with bus bays, the departure concourse being also the platform for arriving trains from NY, and arrivals concourse being the departure platform for trains to New York. Several spaced overbridges with escalators up and down on both sides allow people from incoming buses to go to Secaucus, and the reverse also. Then, in New York, recall that the "L" (and only the "L") has very convenient interchage with all north-sourth subway lined, all just one floor up from the specific L-line platform -- so for many it will be more convenient, not less, than a one-seat ride to the Port Authority.
Also, transportation planners generally wish to make efficient use of assets. When the A went to Lefferts and eliminated the "13" multi rush hour trains from 8th and 14th (that switched from the Canarsie tracks to the Fulton El tracks at Atlantic Ave. Sta.), a good third of the 14th Street line's business went to the A train, and so the line, modern wtih automatic operation, is probably the most underutilized lines in Manhattan, used more only than the Franklin Avenue shuttle and the "G". PATH would do well in sharing the operation of this line with the TA, because what Henry and others are asking of PATH is really a whole new line, since both the WTC and Herald Square lines are near capacity now, and will be at capacity after the extension to Newark Airport starts operating.
Running north and then west from Herald Square simply cannot be done without major demolitions of important buildings and a very radical and difficult reconstruction of the whole Herald Square subway complex.
We talk NJ. All well and good. But what happens to east of Hudson and LI bus services? And long distance/inter city buses? Still only the PABT? or new terminal someplace else, too?
My preference would be to devote part of the new Amtrak terminal to them, and have the costs shared in operating that terminal. Altogether, they are probably no more than 10% of the traffic now at PABT.
Back when Governor Christie decided to cancel the Access to the Region's Core tunnels there was discussion in the newspapers of moving the Port Authority Bus Terminal to Secaucus next to the train station.
As I recall all of the discussion was about extending the No. 7 train to the new terminal. And the big reason for doing it was that almost all of the buses out of the PABT now run to various New Jersey Locations. And the Port Authority could make a lot of money by using the terminal in some other way.
Whether or not the PA would want a smaller terminal in Manhattan I don't know. I think moving the terminal to New Jersey makes a lot of sense but I don't really expect it to happen in my lifetime.
Again, the 14th Street line makes more sense than the No. 7 because it can easily handle the added riders, has more capacity, less problems in tunneling since it is facing in the right direction. Also., if it ever desired to extend the popular European concept of tramtrain, introduced in Karlsbruh, and no different really than the old interubans (the North Shore sharing tracks with streetcars in Milwaukee and Waukegan, and with L-trains in Chicago, the 14th Street line B-division equipment is more compatible with railroading than the A-division-type No. 7 trains. (The B&O's Staten Island RT had essentially BMT-compatable equipment. Under the Transit Authority, it still does. But for a time LIRR equipment was used as a stopgap.) The L train on 14th has direct free transfer to all north-south subway lines. The 7 does also, now, but with block-long walks in two cases.
If bus terminal was located somewhere in NJ then dedicated HrSR trains from there to NY could be run. Either by NJ Transit or the Port Authority. Once Gateway tunnels finished there might be room thru them for long trains upping capacity ?
ALL west[of-hudson rail (plus a good portion of the bus) commuters presently have access to all PATH Manhattan stations via connection at Hoboken or at Newark and no money need be spent on exapanding PATH's route structure to better these connections. Sacaucus has no advantage over Hoboken or Newark., except for a minority of commuters I have been yellling for some time to expand PATH's capacity by extending platforms for eight-car trains, for using hostlers at Newark to double headways and allow through uptown service, and for installing a modern signal system that will permit 90 second headways. (Remember that I did sound consulting work for PATH in 1995, know the system, and have been writing them about these issues since.)
The 7 now turns south and ends south of the Javitts Center. There are real compllications in engineering another curve with coordination with the existing Penn Station tubes, and you are still limited by A Division sized cars, with zero compatibility with regular East-Coast railroading. The 14th Street line is headed in the right direction and future compatibility with regular railroading can be based on passed experience. The cars are the right width and longer and each carries 40% more passengers than cars on the 7 line.
Dave,
I cannot argue with either your logic or your grasp of the facts when you say extending the L train makes more sense than extending the 7 train. But what I recall reading in the Star-Ledger is that extending the 7 train was proposed and the L train was not. Frankly, though, it was a while ago and I may not remember everything.
John
You are correct. Lots of illogical and expensive schemes are proposed for New York. A good case is direct Kennedy Airport service. The infrastructure is almost entirely in place, but no one has considered my idea: Chambers Street Station used now by the J and Z has the capacity for a Manhattan airline terminal, there is curb unloading and loading for taxis and buses above, it is close to the Financail area and the new Fulton Street transit complex, and there is available capacity on the Wiliiamsburg Bridge, J. Z. and M line route for he addtional trains. Add an elevated connection between the J and Z tracks on East Fulton and the A line on Liberty Avenue, and a flyoever connection to the JFK airtrain, with special new Multi-articulated cars designed to run on both airtrain and the subway system (but not linear motor, conventional ac wheel geared motors), and the direct service is eonomically feasible. Door spacing on the neo-multis would match that of the presenet two-car JFK trains, and a five-unit neo-multi train would have each unit dedicated to a specific air terminal with doors opening at that terminal only.
Similarly the rebuilding of Shell interlocking. The straightforward Amtrak design with flyovers at the actual junction takes a lot of land, house destruction, road closings, and a blight on an upscale neighborhood. My proposal is to put the flyovers east of the station, where there is plenty of land left over from when the New Haven had an engine temrinal and coach yard at the site, efficient use of the old Harlem Shuttle fifth (south or east) track through the station, high speed crossvers and switches, computer dispatching, and basically the present eastbound platfrorm becomes the platform for all passenger trains to and from Penn Station, as well as eastbound locals as at present. (Freights running at night would continiiue to use the center non-platform tracks and not use the flyoevers.) Another single-track flyover south of the junction, on the six-track RofW toward the HG Bridge, will sort out the left-hand running through the junction for Penn Station trains. No house destruction, no road closing, no blight.
If the politics can be solved, it would be much better to run NJT to New Rochelle with crew-change there to MN then bringing MN to dead end in Penn Station, which takes capacity. Similarly LIRR to Riverdale, with two dedicated LIRR tracks on the six-track RofW beween Spuyten Diyvel and Riverdale, and a train transfer at Riverdale. And there are places where an LIRR storage yard can be located. Or they can finally install some dual-position double-spung third rail shoes on the mu's and provide Hudson Dov. LIRR thorugh service. The FL-9's had those shoes, originally.
I worked for the Federal Government for over 40 years so I am not anti government. Every single society known to us has had government; we are not going to do without it. But the Federal Government does things is own way and is very resistant to change, especially to suggestions from outsiders.
For example I did a lot of work with checks issued by the United States Treasury. Lost checks, stolen checks and even raised checks. I don't suppose there are a lot of raised checks when you consider all of the Treasury checks that are issued but even a few can cause big problems. But the United States Treasury does now use the same format for their checks that you use and I use and any bank uses. We write the amount in numbers and also in letters. We write $100.00 and One Hundred Dollars and no cents. The US Treasury uses only numbers and small numbers at that. It makes checks a lot easier to raise.
I can't finger out why.
daveklepper bus terminal in the basement of the Hotel Dixie.
bus terminal in the basement of the Hotel Dixie.
Bus Journal, May 1930
Central Union Bus Terminal, Located a Block From Times Square, New York City, Is Most Modern Union Depot in Manhattan.
The only union bus depot in New York City to provide indoor loading is the new central terminal in the Dixie hotel building located at 241 West 42nd street, through to 43rd street between 7th and 8th avenues. This depot is but a short block from Times Square and two express subway stations. When the new 8th avenue municipal subway is completed and placed in operation, a third express subway station will be just around the corner.
The Central Union bus terminal has been designed to afford the utmost comfort and convenience. All requirements of the traveler are provided for, either in the terminal itself, or in the Dixie hotel. The main waiting room, directly adjacent to the loading platform, is provided with comfortable seats for waiting passengers, a smoking room, wash room, baggage and parcel rooms, news stand, information bureau, and telephone booths.
A lunchroom under the management of Loft, Inc., the chain restaurant and confectionery store interests, will provide a necessary terminal facility. Elevator service is provided to the terminal waiting room, connecting with all floors of the hotel.
Unique design of the loading area in this terminal permits the location of a transportation facility in this area of high real estate values. The loading platform and waiting room are located 5 ft. below the level of the street, the motor coaches entering and leaving by separate ramps. The traffic on 43rd street is one way, going from east to west and the ramps are placed at the proper angle to Forty-Third Street to permit easy entrance and exit without interference with other traffic.
A motor coach coming down the entrance ramp drives directly to a turntable, from which 10 loading stands radiate like tracks in a locomotive roundhouse. The coaches are placed in the stands headed away from the turntable so that greater loading space may be obtained by having the front entrance and exit door open at the widest part of the loading platform. A coach leaving the terminal backs on to the turntable, is swung around so that it is headed for the exit ramp, and is driven out.
Turntable is 35 ft. in diameter and covered with a slip-proof steel flooring, with the center depressed 4 in. below the rim to provide a safety feature, should the driver inadvertently leave his brakes released, the saucer-shaped surface preventing the coach from rolling off the turntable. Likewise, the loading stands have a 2 in. drop away from the turntable, so that if the brakes are released, the coach will not back out and cause an accident. Drainage of water or oil which may collect on the surface is provided by several small drains in the flooring.
The turntable is electrically operated and is controlled from the dispatcher's room, which is located only a few feet from the rim and in a position where the movements of vehicles in the loading area can be readily observed. The loading stands are level with the rim of the turntable, with loading platform 6 in. higher to permit a lower step up to enter the coach. A high degree of safety is obtained since no passengers are permitted to cross the run-way space.
Movement of each coach is controlled by the dispatcher through an electric signaling device. Every coach stall has a system of red and green lights which are flashed from a board in the dispatching room, the red light indicating danger, and requiring the driver to wait, and the green light giving authority to back out on the turntable and proceed on his run. The ramps are likewise controlled to prevent danger of collision upon entering or leaving the terminal. The dispatcher also announces the time and departure of each coach. He wears a telephone mouthpiece which is connected to annunciators located in the waiting room and on the loading platform. There are two sets of doors leading to the loading area from the waiting room, each of which serve the coaches on one half of the loading stands. A passenger does not need to walk more than 100 ft. to reach the farthest coach.
Two railroad bus subsidiaries, the Reading Transportation Company and the Jersey Central Transportation Company have been using this terminal since last December, using temporary quarters. The terminal was formally opened on February 15. Several other large bus companies plan using this new terminal. The terminal is under the management of Scarr Transportation Service, Inc., consulting engineers. F. J. Scarr, formerly with the Pennsylvania Railroad, is head of the company.
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